Looking for good Nurgle resources/advice

[mattgslater]

Jimmy's right about the competition level. In my home league, I'm the shiznit. People beat me, and they buy a round for the whole league. On FUMBBL, I'm just a little better than average, and I lose/tie almost as many games as I win. I've played TT games against guys on par with the better FUMBBL coaches, but there's no way anybody in my current league would be ranked much above the FUMBBL average of 150 (I'm at 155 now, will probably level out in the low 160s if I don't improve as my sample-size increases).

I'd say to Smeborg or other TT'ers considering testing the FUMBBL waters:

1) FUMBBL likes TV matching formats, whether in Ranked (where you pick your opponent from the ones who are near your TV) or in Blackbox (where the scheduler does it for you). It's not obvious, but the influence format has on development is not small; particularly in Blackbox, teams that get too high in TV will eventually be massacred by the ClawPOMB teams that hang out at the 2M+ level. This in particular makes AV-dependent strategies less effective in Blackbox (especially) and Ranked (to a lesser extent) than they are in most TT leagues.

2) FUMBBL is very different from TT in terms of interface. In TT you get a very different perspective, and if you play for years and years you never notice how closely your sense of TZs relates to distance. FUMBBL throws all that out the window, forces you to build it up again. Also, when you declare your action, you have the risk of misclicking, so you have to learn always to look at the text to make sure you clicked "Blitz" and not "Move" or whatever. When you choose your target square, you have a small target; I've never picked up a piece and tried to put him in one square, but flinched and put him one over, and if I did somehow, my oppo would totally let me fumble about a bit and get it right. FUMBBL, it happens all the time, because the difference is a quarter-inch on your monitor and a little twitch of the mouse. And if your eye and hand don't jive, the computer won't let you correct it. This has cost me more than one match for sure, and potentially another two or three more.

3) FUMBBL is a great way to get object lessons in what does and doesn't work. If you're curious about a team and its style, go watch some of the top teams' replays and scan their rosters and retired players, to see what the different successful coaches do differently. Spectating live games, especially the best and worst coaches' games, is good for learning, too. If you're hanging out online and speccing a game with a bunch of others, then go ahead and pipe up when one of the coaches watching the match demonstrates a very different approach to risk management or strategy from what you would do. The coaches playing can't see your comments, but the other specs can engage you in dialogue.

I definitely agree with Smeborg about the power of TT to attract coaches. I know a guy who bought the Cyanide game, played it once, and thought it was dumb. Then he came over to my friend's house found us playing TT, and now he plays Skaven in our TT league, swears it's the best game ever. FUMBBL is a great cauldron for BB skill-building, but if you weren't a BB coach already you'd never give it a second look. (And you'd get massacred over and over and over...).

I also agree with Smeborg about the relationship between the size/age of TT leagues and level of competition. I've been in big, established leagues, when we still had our nucleus of coaches back in the day, and my win% (we all knew less then, including today's FUMBBLers, but still) was about the same as it is on FUMBBL, after factoring for overtime.

[Uldreg]

Smeborg, i am interested in your development paths for the Ball Carring pestigor on a stymie team. How do you develop them in relation to the other pestigors especially. Is it the first pestigor that gets a level gets the Ball Carrier path, or do you develop the BC once you get the others on track for their utilitarian roles? How do you generaly develop an AG pestigor, what about a standard build? Also how much do you value MV on Pestigors, is it an always kind of thing? Seems that a little more speed on stymie Nurgle might really crank the heat up on defense. If i missed something a few pages back i apologize.

[Smeborg]

Smeborg, i am interested in your development paths for the Ball Carring pestigor on a stymie team. How do you develop them in relation to the other pestigors especially. Is it the first pestigor that gets a level gets the Ball Carrier path, or do you develop the BC once you get the others on track for their utilitarian roles? How do you generaly develop an AG pestigor, what about a standard build? Also how much do you value MV on Pestigors, is it an always kind of thing? Seems that a little more speed on stymie Nurgle might really crank the heat up on defense. If i missed something a few pages back i apologize.

Uldreg - your perceptions appear entirely correct, and your questions are good. Normally the first Pestigor to get an advance becomes the ball carrier (Runner). The Runner loves stat increases (+MA, +ST, +AG). He also loves doubles, although these can be a little bit more variable. If he has +MA, then S-Feet, Sprint work well as doubles, if he has +AG, Dodge is the obvious doubles choice. The 3 other Pestigors (Blitzers) also love stat increases (+ST, +AG, possibly +MA, although normal skills should not be neglected, especially early on). Doubles choices for Pestigor Blitzers would be Sidestep, Jump Up (to increase their stymie dynamism), although Dodge should be considered. Dodge is a bit of an all or nothing choice on this team (I am open-minded between the all and the nothing). +AG Blitzers are quite dynamic, with the ability to dodge away, blitz the ball-carrier and break cages. This dynamism can potentially be increased with 2-Heads (as a late skill).

Here are the skill paths in full that I would recommend for Pestigors (in order):

1 Pestigor Runner: S-Hands, K-Ret, X-Arms, Block, Fend, (2-Heads). Doubles: S-Feet, Sprint, consider Dodge. Stats: +MA, +ST, +AG. Notes: the Runner is specialised in moving the ball quickly and reliably. He will get more SPPs than any other member of the team, so he will realistically get to 5 skills. I have tried other skill orders, this is what has worked best for me in practice. Skill order matters, because doubles and stat increases tend to intervene.

3 Pestigor Blitzers: Wrestle, Fend, Tackle, 2-Heads, (Pro), (X-Arms). Doubles: S-Step, J-Up, consider Dodge. Stats: +ST, +AG, consider +MA. Notes: the Blitzers are specialised at bringing down ball-carriers, receivers and obstacles. They have a secondary role on offense as receivers, hence they will skill up at a medium rate, realistically getting to 3 or more skills. Opponents have an intense dislike of these players, and may target them even when another player type is the immediate threat.

A fast ball carrying Pestigor Runner is an asset to any Nurgle team (whether stymie or killer). The chances are that such a player will get some stat increases and/or doubles. Both stymie and killer teams seem to need only one Runner (you need 3 Blitzers in order to maintain resilience during matches, and to keep the skilled replacements coming through in the event of deaths/retirements). You need a minimum of 2 skilled Blitzers, ideally (one is often a rookie). In the event that the Runner is killed/retired, you have to live with it. He should be replaced with a rookie, who will skill up quickly (he gets half or more of the team's TDs), hence the replacement process is not as painful as it might appear.

Stymie Nurgle should always be prepared to abandon stalling tactics and to score "early" (e.g. in 4 or 5 turns), trusting to their defense rather than risking getting turned over on offense. Thus they often play 3/4 of the game on defense, more like an AG than a ST team. This is part of their "charm".

There are only 2 specialists in my Nurgle build: the Beast (by nature) and the Pestigor Runner (by design).

Hope that helps.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Uldreg - You have to bear in mind that that the best starting team has only one pestigor on it and he will probably skill before you buy a 2nd so by default he becomes the ball carrier.
I think plus stats is the number one requirement for a good ball carrier, and then a double for Blodge.
If you go the killer route you can be more likely to get a good ballcarrier by taking Block first on all pestigors and hoping for dodge or +stat as a 2nd skill so you can surehands him as the third skill.
However in TT even with a killer build I would always skill him surehands first normal skill and hopefully blodge as the next two.
Dodge is always the best doubles choice for the ballcarrier I think, it's rare in any league to see more than three mobile players with tackle and of course you can target these guys to limit their shots on your ballcarrier.
I agree with smeborg on two heads and fend but I would never take extra arms or KoR.
These are some great ballcarriers from fumbbl:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=playe ... id=7902947
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=playe ... id=7891890
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=playe ... id=7903837

[Wanchor]

My ballcarrier was developed with Sure Hands, Block, Kick-off Return and Foul Appearance, in that order. Sure Hands and Kick-off Return have been the most useful, since I can cage up fairly easily most of the time to prevent him from taking blocks, so the key is to get him protected and with the ball ASAP. I prefer, obviously, to blitz my way out of crappy situations rather than attempting to dodge, but it still happens once in a while that a dodge is necessary; for this reason, I consider Two Heads as his next skill assuming I don't get a double or +1 AG, but Extra Arms and Big Hand still tempt me well.

[Uldreg]

Thanks for the help everyone. I am really interested in trying a stymie type of nurgle team out. Only thing is i can never live without a frenzier. One of those toolbox skills i have on everyteam. My motto is basically, the sidelines are mine. You want to run into SF warriors and my beast in the middle, go ahead, but if you get near that sideline you are getting surfed... I see the advantages that stymie nurgle can bring, so I am trying a semi hybrid with a Frenzy Pestigor as a 3rd specialist. I know its not pure stymie, but i feel i need to ease into this like an old man into a bathtub. After getting a couple wrestle Pesti's i can really see how stymie nurgle can really pressure the ball. One last question, do you ever consider Big Hand on a pestigor, ball carrier or standard, for defensive ball retrieval?

[betterZthenDeaD]

Still playing my Nurgle team on the Cyanide game and I'm around the 1680 TV mark now. My ball carrier Pestigor is now about to go up to level 4 (he scores most of the touchdowns). I use him to get the ball - he has sure hands - and always seem to end up caging around him. Two or three turns of the slow, grinding push upfield and then out he pops for a run to the line. I have nearly scored with a Rotter but he got walloped two squares from the line as I'd bottled the GFI's! I'm now winning most of my games (just beat a 2130 TV Norse team) and I seem to be winning them 1-0 as I should be (couple of 2-1's, highest touchdown count in one game was a 2-2 draw with a Skaven team). I have to say I really love this team and can't wait to take them into a TT league.

On a little side note, I've just posted on the For Sale/Wanted boards as I'm desperately looking for a classic Beast of Nurgle for my 'big boy' Nurgle team. Hoping to join a league in the summer so I new to find one soon and get painting!

[Smeborg]

Thanks for the help everyone. I am really interested in trying a stymie type of nurgle team out. Only thing is i can never live without a frenzier. One of those toolbox skills i have on everyteam. My motto is basically, the sidelines are mine. You want to run into SF warriors and my beast in the middle, go ahead, but if you get near that sideline you are getting surfed... I see the advantages that stymie nurgle can bring, so I am trying a semi hybrid with a Frenzy Pestigor as a 3rd specialist. I know its not pure stymie, but i feel i need to ease into this like an old man into a bathtub. After getting a couple wrestle Pesti's i can really see how stymie nurgle can really pressure the ball. One last question, do you ever consider Big Hand on a pestigor, ball carrier or standard, for defensive ball retrieval?

I have considered but never taken Big Hand on a Pestigor. S-Hands+X-Arms gives an 8/9 chance of picking up in a tackle zone, which is decent enough (also 8/9 to dodge away with re-roll). Stymie Nurgle are also able to secure the loose ball by putting Tentacled and/or S-Firm tackle zones on it, waiting until a subsequent turn to pick it up (or even leaving it on the ground if they cannot score). A cage with no ball carrier.

I have considered but never taken Frenzy on a Pestigor, although I have done so on Beastmen. The skill path I considered was Frenzy/J-Naut/Block/S-Firm, but this creates another specialist, delays Block/Wrestle, and does not sit well with the rest of my team build (or with my preferred defensive set-ups). Like you, I consider Frenzy to be an excellent skill, and an asset to many teams. However, I do not find it useful to or needed by all teams. The risk with Nurgle is that the Frenzied player(s) will often be out of position, when Nurgle need their players to be positioned with precision at all times, on both offense and defense. Anyway, let us know how you get on.

Bear in mind that a Warrior with Block/S-Firm can simply "escort" a low AG opponent into the crowd all by himself (or at least threaten to do so).

There are only 4 Pestigors. You will note a point of similarity between my stymie build and many killer builds, which is that they have 1 Runner and 3 Blitzers of similar build. My experience suggests that if you have only 2 designated ball-hunting Blitzers (Wrestle/Fend/Tackle etc.), then one of them is easily dispatched to the dugout (or killed), leaving you with just one - far from ideal. Having 3 of them means you will likely have 2 to set up in defense most of the time.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

On a little side note, I've just posted on the For Sale/Wanted boards as I'm desperately looking for a classic Beast of Nurgle for my 'big boy' Nurgle team. Hoping to join a league in the summer so I new to find one soon and get painting!

I use a converted Great Unclean One (Greater Demon of Nurgle) from the Warhammer range (about 10 years old). You should look at this kind of figurine, as often they are quite appealing, can be easily converted (removal of weapons, mainly), and can often work well without needing a base (being flat-bottomed).

All the best.

[Smeborg]

These are some great ballcarriers from fumbbl:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=playe ... id=7902947
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=playe ... id=7891890
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=playe ... id=7903837

Thanks, Jimmy. The 8348 Pestigor is particularly fearsome.

Raw speed on a Pestigor Runner should not be underestimated. I had one with S-Hands, X-Arms, +MA, S-Feet who was hard to stop (9 squares of reliable movement). Another had +ST, +AG, Dodge, Block, S-Hands. Hard to bring down.

[Uldreg]

Yeah, being a touch out of position happens when you try and surf. Blitzing at STR 4 helps the team position a bit, as he will not usually need more than one assist for a 2-d surf attempt. My tendency is to usually shuffle people around to support these attempts and maintain defensive integrity, which is critical for nurgle. I find that intially i can usually make do, especially if i can get a man off the pitch. If not, i can hold for a couple turns, but a smart opponent see's the small inneffiecencies in my D and things can begin to crack. If i am giving up a score, its when that happens, or if i get caught with my pants down on offense or something. I am intrigued by your utilitarian style (its why i love DE so much), and might give it a go if my frenzy Block pestigor dies.

One thing as far as the warriors: Do you ever take Grab later in development? I could see it working very nicely with tents, standfirm, FA, etc... Stymie Nurgle seem to be very focused on positioning, and Grab is butter for positioning...

[Smeborg]

One thing as far as the warriors: Do you ever take Grab later in development? I could see it working very nicely with tents, standfirm, FA, etc... Stymie Nurgle seem to be very focused on positioning, and Grab is butter for positioning...

Sadly, I haven't got as far as Grab yet on the Warriors, but it is very much in the plan. I believe a Warrior with Block, S-Firm, Tentacles, Grab would be rather fearsome and difficult for opponents to deal with. Sadly, I feel Guard is (normally) necessary before Grab. Standard Warrior plan would be:

Block, Stand Firm, Tentacles (or Guard), Guard (or Tentacles), Grab, (Break Tackle).
Doubles: ignore (consider Dodge if Block, Stand Firm already).
Stats: ST only.

Whether to take Guard or Tentacles depends how much Guard you have on the team already. You need a minimum of (say) 3 in total. Also, if you have a ST5 Warrior (it does happen!), he can take Tentacles, leaving the others to take Guard.

Hope that helps.

[Smeborg]

I am intrigued by your utilitarian style...

I prefer to think of it in terms of "generalisation" vs. "specialisation".

I quite like generalist builds, but also find that some teams suit generalist builds, some suit specialist builds. My first proper league team was Chaos Dwarfs way back in 3rd Ed. Just 2 player types (Chaos Dwarfs and Hobgoblins). I like the flexibility that generalist builds give you in practical play - it is rare for players to be badly out of position. Compared to other coaches, I have a certain disregard for player safety - a generalist build means I don't have to worry about protecting specialists, or about replacements.

[Wanchor]

I see the advantages that stymie nurgle can bring, so I am trying a semi hybrid with a Frenzy Pestigor as a 3rd specialist.

I too develop a third Pestigor as a specialist, but one aimed towards killing and blitzing of otherwise-difficult targets. Frenzy was considered for him, but for the same reasons as Smeborg has stated (that is, positioning, positioning, positioning), I've foregone Frenzy and Piling On. As much as it might be nice to be able reliably to threaten the wide zones and funnel more action toward the Beast and friends, I feel that my wide zones are protected enough with a Block, Stand Firm warrior and a Pestigor, and another Warrior nearby.

As for Grab, I toy with the notion of giving it to the Warriors as a third skill for half of them, the other half taking Guard, to be followed by Guard, just to mix things up a bit and see how it all works. Both Grab and Guard are on the list for the Beast and assuming no doubles for his next roll, it'll depend on the number of Guard players I already have as to which I'll give him.

[Smeborg]

Wanchor - Grab is excellent on the Beast, as it enables him to throw blocks while still tying up multiple players (he does not have to push one of them away). The same reasoning applies to the Warriors (but as a later skill, since they start without Tentacles).