Juggernaut and Wrestle

[Darkson]

Might be narrowing my search to much, but
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=18232&p=330329&hil ... el#p330329

[DoubleSkulls]

Grum - I agree that there seem to be inconsistencies, but only if you try and guess (or second guess) the intentions of the rule writers. I was just trying to argue solely from the basis of the written rules, as (say) Galak might.

All the best.

There is a very clear and explicit rule that says skill use is optional unless stated otherwise. The wording of Frenzy is quite clear on this point too. Juggs is not explicit therefore it is optional.

Grab and Sidestep is a little different since there is a peculiar circular skill interactions where the 3 normal push back squares are occupied. That doesn't apply for Juggs. I wouldn't read any more into it than that.

Grums examples also don't quite work in practice because if you elect not to use Juggs there is nothing making your opponent use Stand Firm for instance. Effectively with Juggs you can force

[Darkson]

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=24349&hilit=+juggernaut+optional

[Smeborg]

Thanks, Ian. Firstly, I agree that the practical likelihood of this question coming up in play is slight, so it is something of a storm in a teacup.

For me, I'm just interested in the clarity of individual skill descriptions in relation to mandatory skill use. The Frenzy skill description is clear, since it uses "must", as do some other mandatory skill descriptions (including Bombardier, Bonehead, Bloodlust, Chainsaw, Really Stupid and Stunty). Other mandatory skills, however, do not include the word "must" (for example Animosity, Ball and Chain, Decay, Loner and Take Root). Instead they just state: "do x."

For someone coming new to the rulebook, all they will see for Juggernaut is:

"If this player (i.e. a player with the Juggernaut skill) takes a Blitz Action, the opposing player may not use his... skills."

For me, this "may not" is at least as strong (in terms of being mandatory) as the skill description wording for Animosity, Ball and Chain, Decay, Loner, and Take Root. And Frenzy would be another example of a mandatory skill that has (potentially) both positive and negative consequences.

I would be happier if the Juggernaut skill description said: "A player using this skill..." rather than "A player with this skill..." If you are saying that someone coming new (or afresh) to the rulebook should be expected to interpret "with this skill" as meaning "using this skill" on the basis of skill use not being mandatory unless stated otherwise in the skill description, I'm not sure that's fair.

[Grumbledook]

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=24349&hilit=+juggernaut+optional

That doesn't say juggernaut is always used, it says that part of the skill is always used if you elect to use the skill.

But Ian cleared it up already anyway ;]

[Smeborg]

If there were to be a rules re-write (I know none is on offer in the near future), I would recommend that all mandatory skill use include the word "mandatory" in the skill description.

[Darkson]

But Ian cleared it up already anyway ;]

But I'm not sure he has, as I'm convinced I've seen Galak say that the first part of Juggernaut works exactly like Grab ("if you Blitz, then the following skills are cancelled"), and isn't optional. Unfortunatly I don't have the time to search right now, so I can't find anything to show I'm right or wrong.
I agree the 2nd part is optional though.

[Grumbledook]

Juggs is not explicit therefore it is optional.

Seems rather clear to me, Grab is the same in not being explicit.

If you can hire Indiana Jones to find this fabled tome of Galak saying otherwise then we can hire a thunderdome for Ian and Tom to fight it out. ;]

[Darkson]

Actually, did have a chance to use the search, and I'm withdrawing my objection. I'm either misremembering (likely!), or I just can't find the post (and to be honest, it might not have even been on TBB, so if it was on the old SG forum, I won't be able to find it!).
Damn, that cost me a TD in our Chaos League.

[GalakStarscraper]

I have fought with Ian on rulings in the past. Not on this one.

Juggernaut is meant to be an optional skill.

Frenzy and the Nega-Traits are the only non-optional skills (at least that was the intent).

Galak

[Smeborg]

Thanks everyone. I have no problem with the common interpretation of the rule.

I simply suggest it would be easier (at the next rules re-write, whenever that may be) for the mandatory skill uses to include the word "mandatory" (or similar). That would avoid the need for the reader to make subtle decisions on the meaning of "unless otherwise stated" (which I think is what is meant in the posts referring to explicit vs. not explicit).

All the best.

[GalakStarscraper]

Thanks everyone. I have no problem with the common interpretation of the rule.

I simply suggest it would be easier (at the next rules re-write, whenever that may be) for the mandatory skill uses to include the word "mandatory" (or similar). That would avoid the need for the reader to make subtle decisions on the meaning of "unless otherwise stated" (which I think is what is meant in the posts referring to explicit vs. not explicit).

All the best.

This is actually a good a suggestion Smeborg. (no sarcasm here ... it is a good idea)

Remember to suggest it again in 10 years when GW cares again about BB.

[DoubleSkulls]

If there were to be a rules re-write (I know none is on offer in the near future), I would recommend that all mandatory skill use include the word "mandatory" in the skill description.

This is a good idea.

I'd also change it to make Juggs & Grabs skill negation work regardless of action type.

[GalakStarscraper]

This is a good idea.

I'd also change it to make Juggs & Grabs skill negation work regardless of action type.

I know Grab working on a Blitz was put up for a BBRC vote in 2008 Ian and failed to get to pass. Juggernaut was never on the table for Blocking.

Galak

[Grumbledook]

Grab's skill negation part does work on a blitz in the CRP... ;]