Just how good is Stab?

[Grumbledook]

thats the experimental rules that may or may not be in LRB6

LRB5 it is still +1 to any injury on stunties ;]

oh except stab

[swntzu]

We were talking about lrb5 here but the modified results for lrb6 stunty were mentioned by joe I think.

[PubBowler]

The stab vs niggle/stunty thing has been clarified before on TBB.

I agree with Joe that Stab seems poor due to the rostered players being poor.

I disagree with Darkson that it's sucks against high AV players.
It's less helpful but does still have an advantage.

Stab ignores relative strength and assists.

Stab can be very useful to get a free AV roll on mummies, BOBs etc before you block them away from the LOS.

[besters]

Stab can be very useful to get a free AV roll on mummies, BOBs etc before you block them away from the LOS.

I agree, it's useful if you take it as a free chance to hurt someone, combined with the possibility it will be followed by a riskier block.

[Smeborg]

Thanks for your many interesting comments, guys. I slipped up and was playing +1 for Stunty (we are playing LRB6 draft rules). But, nevertheless, Rashnak Backstabber was outstanding in this game. What struck me in practice was:

(a) The dramatic increase in injury rolls from having just one Stabber on the field

(b) That Stabbing is a "free" (i.e. risk-free) action, so you can take it at the beginning of your turn, before even standing players up, and can change your game plan for the turn depending on the result of the Stab.

(c) That you can Stab from positions where you would not consider blocking (because of assists).

(c) That Stab is a skill which increases dramatically in value with the right skill combinations (in this case Dodge/Sidestep).

So all in all very powerful indeed. I note that a Dark Elf side could start a game with 3 Stabbers (2 Assassins plus Horkon, who has Multiple Block). I wouldn't like to be on the receiving end of that with an AV7 side.

All the best

[Smeborg]

Also a stat from our league last year (from memory):

- A single Assassin got 29 Stabs (successful armour penetrations) in 5 games (then he died...).

[DoubleSkulls]

Given that to stab you need to be in a position to block or have to blitz I'm surprised at the number. Normally I'll not leave anyone next to a standing stabber as a precaution. Most times that means they don't stab.

Also on a DE team Assassins are Av7, so a a good target for blitzes & fouls.

If you can get nearly 6 av breaking stabs per game then I think the likeliest explanation is that the opponents are playing sub-optimally against the Assassin and need to learn handle it better.

[Smeborg]

I agree that the Assassins make great targets - indeed they come with the cross-hairs sign on their foreheads. But don't you love having targets on your team? It can only distract your opponent from moving or attacking the ball.

I'm just reporting what I see in practice. What I find consistently is that Stab is better than I was expecting. I'm thinking of playing Dark Elves next season just to find out what it's really like (if I can find anyone to play against them, that is...).

All the best

[Willi]

I wish I had started our last league with an assassin. He really rocked but not necessaryly by stabbing. But having positioned him directly behind the LOS he more than once prevented opponents to follow up block made on the LOS hence freeing my other players.

Also he posed as a target soaking up blitzes. My opponent in the final took 2/3 of the game to get rid of the (unskilled) assassin before he SIed him. Won me the final as he really distracted the opponent from important things.

So I really love the assassin on the DE team and will try to get one with Multiple Block next.

[DoubleSkulls]

Its always nice when your opponent plays sub-optimally!

Generally I'd suggest that when you don't have any particularly tactical advantageous blitz - or a choice - you should be hitting the weakest target or the highest value target.

Getting rid of players to establish a numerical superiority is important for winning games. So hitting an Av7 unkskilled player (i.e dodge/block/wrestle) gives better odds than a Block Av8 player (for instance) - especailly if they are roughly even value to your opponent.

So all other things being even I'll blitz and assassin over a line elf or probably a blitzer or witch. However I'd take a runner first

[Digger Goreman]

Stab + Secret Weapon = plausible

Stab - Secret Weapon = re-dork-ulous

[TalonBay]

Given that to stab you need to be in a position to block or have to blitz I'm surprised at the number. Normally I'll not leave anyone next to a standing stabber as a precaution. Most times that means they don't stab.

Also on a DE team Assassins are Av7, so a a good target for blitzes & fouls.

If you can get nearly 6 av breaking stabs per game then I think the likeliest explanation is that the opponents are playing sub-optimally against the Assassin and need to learn handle it better.

Completely agree, I use an assassin with my DE in a league with a mix of agility and bashy teams. He's a threat vs specific opponents but it's rare he's left with a free stab (I did mess up his only skill upgrade but it was part of a larger plan). He usually gets a few stabs in vs AV7 teams and does force them to react to him but he's sidelined vs the bashier teams.

I think he adds flavour to the style of the team and is possibly slightly underpowered (but don't tell that to the team he just butchered!).

[Smeborg]

So I wonder what is everyone's experience of Stab, especially on Star Players, or on Assassins that have skilled up?

All the best.

Just to remind everyone of my original question at the top of this thread.

I accept that rookie Assassins are a little vulnerable (but no more so than any unskilled AV7 player), but what strikes me in tabletop play is the great usefulness of skilled Stabbers (whether Stars or rostered players who have skilled up).

I'd love to see some feedback on that from other coaches.

[Rhyoth]

The main problem here is to get a skilled stabber :
_as mentionned before, the guy is a great target (which can be very useful sometimes )
_ the guy won't skill up fast since :
a) he won't gain SPPs from his "CAS'"
b) you've got 8 players more qualified to score TD
c) he spends more time stunned or KO'ed than any other DE player
d) did someone mentionned that Assassins are just huge targets ?

So, the DE assassins won't see their 3rd skill most of the time, unless you give him Block AND Dodge as his first 2 skills (don't worry, that won't prevent them to die anyway), which is sub-optimal IMHO.

Sure, a Assassin with Block, Dodge, Side Step looks good, especially if he gets Guard or Multiple Block next. However you need to be very patient to get there, and a good Orc Blitzer can still kill him pretty easily.

Personnally, I prefer to give him a very specific skill first, such as Jump up or Pass Block, for 2 reasons :
_ I can use him in a specific role right away
_ it will strongly increase the Assassin's "Fear Factor", leaving my Furries free from my opponent 's attention .

[Smeborg]

I agree that Assassin-specific skills like Jump Up and Sidestep (MultiBlock on a double) look better than plain vanilla defensive skills suck as blodge. But that's just theory until I test it...

Meanwhile, Rashnak Backstabber just did enough on his own to win another game for my Hobgoblin team (against Underworld Pact). My opponent was correctly wary of him, but in the inevitable scramble for the ball at the end of the first half (turns 7 and Rashnak got in his first two stabs of the game. They were a permanent injury on a skilled Thrower (modified to MNG by the Apothecary) and a Dead skilled Linerat (which is a positional player in the Underworld team). As well as helping to prevent a very probable equalising TD, Rashnak gave me a numbers advantage for the second half, as well as a skill advantage (he had put 2 of the best opposing players in the dugout). With some other extreme luck (interception TD followed by a Blitz) the Hobgoblins ran out rather improbable 4-0 winners. But even without the Blitz and interception, Rashnak alone would have given me a win.

Now I know that this involves quite a bit of luck, but it's still striking that Rashnak has won both games that he has played in. Bear in mind that my opponent had learned how to play against him for the second game (and we were playing the Stab rules correctly this time!).

All the best.