GW - what to do????

[BullBear]

Hey fellas,

Lately I've been put off by the direction BB has taken, particularly the new teams by fanatic. Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that Fanatic has put BB back on the radar, but they are doing serious damage to the game with these new teams. A quick run down of the teams in the past few issues of BBMag:

Necro undead - silly and stupid
Khemri - Broke
Vamps - Broke
Rotters - Broke
Ogres - Haven't seen their numbers yet, but it doesn't sound good.

IMO, the BB system, can't support all these teams. The statline isn't long enough nor the skills plentiful enough to create a plethora of different - yet balanced - squads. I know that GW has this 'a rule for every mini' crap going on, but why can't 'a rule be used for several minis'? GW should make minis that we can field as XXX team. For example - use the rotters as minis for a Rotter themed Chaos Team (no brainer). Use Khemri models for an egyptian undead team - standard rules of course-, etc.

I will no longer buy BBMag. Before the inks even try all the boards are alit with legit reasons on why the new XXX team is unbalanced. Then, after we've been duped into spending a good year to 'playtest' the rules for the BBRC, we get them included in the LRB. I'm sorry, I want to spend that year playing a legit league, NOT playtesting broke teams to push minis. Want me to spend my valuable (and decreasing - wedding soon and all) game time playtesting? Put me on the pay-roll.

At any rate, I'm afraid I've veered off my topic. GW give me new minis to use with rules that already work, don't create new (broken) rules that the mini can only be played under.

[ZanzerTem]

Here here!

<raises a glass>

[tommy316]

Yeah, but aren't house rules wonderful!!!!
I don't care how they come out with new mini's, just keep producing them.
And I agree the statline and skills are not big enough to really change up a team. I like the old stat line: Movement, Sprint, Strength, Throw, Catch, Armor, Agility (I think that's all of them).

[GalakStarscraper]

The statline isn't long enough nor the skills plentiful enough to create a plethora of different - yet balanced - squads.

BullBear, since I run the MBBL2 ... I respectifully disagree on this point (since that league and its 4 sister leagues have 76 rosters). I'll also disagree that the Necro team is silly and stupid since its one of the most popular teams with coaches in my LRB+experimental league.

HOWEVER, I agree with most of the rest of your post. I'd really like to see the experimental teams discussed and tested by a select group of leagues BEFORE they see their first printing in BB Mag.

This is how the BB2k1 rules were done, and its what I'd definitely like to see for BB Mag.

I agree that every team printed since BB Mag #3 has needed revision and work to make balanced, and that this isn't what I want from Fanatic and BB Mag.

However, I have the luxery that most do not of running two league ... one that tests and gives feedback on the experimental rules and one that ignores them until they are offical.

My comment would be ... while feedback on the experimental rules and teams are great ... I would never feel like you have to be involved with that piece. The bottom line of the game is to have fun.

Look at it this way for all the abuse that the BBRC gets, they are the only thing standing between the crap that has been in BB Mag for the last 4 issues for new teams and what makes it into officialdom in the LRB. And for the most part they agree with the coaches that changes (several major) are needed to these teams before they approach being official.

Galak

[Ghost of Pariah]

For the most part Galak is right but what he fails to see is that when we do gripe about the mags or minis the BBRC rides to GW's defense (and then goes on about how they aren't 'yes men') I really belive they promised not to say anything bad about GW cuz I have seen all of them who post here support each Mag team in one form or another. That doesn't exactly fill me with confidence for their grasp of what is game balance.


As for what to do? I think if you are dissatisfied you should do what I do. Boycott their products, and speak your mind! GW will only listen to us when the money stops coming. Don't buy the minis that they are trying to sucker you into buying. Wait a few months, buy the minis used from eBay and ignore the magazines! They aren't worth it. There's nothing in them of value, anyway.

BOYCOTT GAMES WORKSHOP NOW!

[ZanzerTem]

Woohoo! Let em have it Pariah....I have your back

[BullBear]

As for what to do? I think if you are dissatisfied you should do what I do. Boycott their products, and speak your mind! GW will only listen to us when the money stops coming. Don't buy the minis that they are trying to sucker you into buying. Wait a few months, buy the minis used from eBay and ignore the magazines! They aren't worth it. There's nothing in them of value, anyway.

I'm not sure this is the correct way to go about it. I don't want to send the message that I'm no longer playing their games, they just need to look at how they're selling it. I'm glad that Galak agrees that latest issues of BBMag are not what they could be. Fanatic and the BBRC need to acknowledge this. (I still disagree with Galak's position that you can have 70+ balanced teams - the MBBL2 has many made up rules and wack-@$$ teams, and yes the Necro team is silly).

True, I always check alternate sources for minis before having to buy from GW, but rules is rules. BB is starting to have tourneys spring up all over the country, and a nice universal rule set would be nice. That's another point entirely. Bottom line: STOP charging $$ for experimental rules and STOP f^@$ing up the teams.

[wesleytj]

the problem is that you have a blood bowl league, and a coach (especially a newbie coach) comes to you with an officially printed gw product and shows you this team, and then gets all pissy when they can't use it.

it's all well and good that the bbrc decides what becomes official and what doesn't, as long as the player in question knows the difference. most guys don't.

[GalakStarscraper]

The one positive note .... as far as I know there are no more experimental teams on the horizon that I know of. The Elf team is coming out next and without new rules. So maybe blessfully and thankfully we'll be spared any new experimental teams for the next 4 to 6 months.

Like I said I run two leagues ....

The MBBL2 has a pretty fixed set of unique rules ... unique enough that 4 other leagues use them. As a self contained set of rules I believe that we have created 76 rosters, but we had to do a lot of new stuff to get there. I've said it many many many times ... I don't EVER want Blood Bowl to become the MBBL2.

The MBBL is my LRB only league. Its also tests the experimental rules. Experimental rules that have come so fast and furious that I finally said no more. So we haven't added the secret weapon rules to the league yet from BB Mag #5. We were able to add the Ogre and Nurgle's Rotters team to the league, but we are taking a break for a couple months from the non-team experimental rules.

Galak

Galak

[Ghost of Pariah]

While I completely respect the amount of work and precarious balanceing that the MBBL 2 must take, I don't think it really proves that the rest of the BB world is capable of supporting that many teams...especially as long as the powers that be are afraid to to make new rules/skills.

That said, I'd like to see Blood Bowl progress to something in a similar vein to the MBBL2. I'm not saying I want the MBBL 2 to be the future of our game! God no! I'm saying I'd like to see a lot new rules that are there (sometimes) just for silliness! Not every rule needs to be some Earth shattering new big deal. Sometimes a new team can be made just because somebody tweaked some humans and added some weirdness.

[wesleytj]

you and i are way apart on that one pariah. i don't like a bunch of new rules just for silliness.

i like to keep the game as simple as possible, with as little new fluff crap as possible. if something new is needed to FIX something that's WRONG with the game in terms of balance or playability that's one thing. But every potential rule that comes along has to meet that criteria before I accept it.

I guess i'm just a big spoiled sport...but i take the game somewhat seriously and don't want a whole bunch of silly crap to screw it up. I also don't want to look up on any more charts to see what kind of field i'm playing on, or what kind of ball we're using, or what day of the week it is. The game already has plenty (too much?) crap like that already.

[Milo]

For the most part Galak is right but what he fails to see is that when we do gripe about the mags or minis the BBRC rides to GW's defense (and then goes on about how they aren't 'yes men') I really belive they promised not to say anything bad about GW cuz I have seen all of them who post here support each Mag team in one form or another. That doesn't exactly fill me with confidence for their grasp of what is game balance.

I've said it before, but Pariah will never believe me -- we are perfectly free to say whatever we want about Fanatic. However, I think -- in general -- Jervis and Andy have done a great job of rejuvenating the game and that we all owe them some gratitude for doing that. As for the rules problems, I prefer to work within the established system (feedback to BBRC who reviews everything on an annual basis) to just bitching on whatever online forums exist.

Do I ride to their defense? Yes -- but I do it because I'm a fan of the game (which, like it or not, wouldn't even exist if it weren't for Jervis), not because I'm a BBRC member. Even when I was loudly complaining about the 4th Edition ruleset, I was still grateful to Jervis for fighting to get GW to support BB once again.

As for what to do? I think if you are dissatisfied you should do what I do. Boycott their products, and speak your mind! GW will only listen to us when the money stops coming. Don't buy the minis that they are trying to sucker you into buying. Wait a few months, buy the minis used from eBay and ignore the magazines! They aren't worth it. There's nothing in them of value, anyway.

BOYCOTT GAMES WORKSHOP NOW!

I think this is a perfectly stupid idea, but okay, it's your right. Fanatic isn't charging for the rules, just the miniatures, so if you like the miniatures, I say go ahead and buy them -- if you don't like the rules, simply make your own. That's what people are going to do anyways.

Milo

[Mirascael]

I think this is a perfectly stupid idea, but okay, it's your right. Fanatic isn't charging for the rules, just the miniatures, so if you like the miniatures, I say go ahead and buy them -- if you don't like the rules, simply make your own. That's what people are going to do anyways.

Some 7 years ago I left 2nd BB and started playing MTG CCG (Magic).

Now that I'm back in the business (LRB is an excellent improvement indeed), I wonder why the quality of the minis has deteriorated that much since 2nd (the new ogres appear, of course, improved)?

I mean, the current halflings would fit into the Palace of Eternal Suffering, they really do hurt my eyes.

What has happened over the last 7 years? Please enlighten me!

[Milo]

I'm not sure this is the correct way to go about it. I don't want to send the message that I'm no longer playing their games, they just need to look at how they're selling it. I'm glad that Galak agrees that latest issues of BBMag are not what they could be. Fanatic and the BBRC need to acknowledge this. (I still disagree with Galak's position that you can have 70+ balanced teams - the MBBL2 has many made up rules and wack-@$$ teams, and yes the Necro team is silly).

For the record, I do agree that the none of the recently printed teams in the BBMag are something I would like to include in my own league. I'm doing what I can to fix them, and I believe several of the other BBRC members are involved in their own ways. (JKL has been pretty busy with the NAF lately, or I'm sure he'd be participating more himself.)

That said, Fanatic IS a business, and to stay in operation they need to keep making products that people will buy. I do wish the BBRC got more than a cursory examination of the rules before they're printed, but I don't have the power to change that. Do I want people to buy Fanatic's products? Sure, because I want Fanatic to stay in business and continue producing new products. If you compare the last year's worth of BB releases compared to those from the years after 3rd Ed came out, it's a world of difference. From 1994 - 2000, we got a metal human team and the Norse. Since then, we've had new minis for Amazons, Rotters, Lizardmen, Ogres, Thrudd, Khemri, and there's more still to come. Plus the game itself is back in stores (with a much needed rules cleanup), meaning we all have the chance to play games against new coaches.

All of that, plus the NAF, is a result of Fanatic's work. That's reason enough to defend them, in my opinion. I'm sorry if this upsets some people on this board.

True, I always check alternate sources for minis before having to buy from GW, but rules is rules. BB is starting to have tourneys spring up all over the country, and a nice universal rule set would be nice. That's another point entirely. Bottom line: STOP charging $$ for experimental rules and STOP f^@$ing up the teams.

BB does have a universal rule set -- the LRB. Note that Khemri, Rotters, Ogres, etc. are not a part of it yet. I'm curious to see if you think the Norse, Amazons and Lizardmen -- teams which have become official -- are unbalanced. If you don't, then I hope you'll understand that the BBRC will do our best to ensure that the new teams will get the same treatment.

Milo

[tchatter]

Just wanted to put in my vote for the Necro team. I am playing one in the LPL and I currently am enjoying it. Even if Phil weakened the regen and I have no 'real' necromancer...*sigh* I am still making do and able to win games here and there. It is tough though to keep the SPPs off the WWolf, and to spread them around.