Talk Fantasy Football

Hi there:

There's that guy, Mark Kirby (MK1881 in Facebook), who was banned from this site because some miniatures he was producing seemed to be in conflict with the miniatures from other fabricant. The issue has been cleared (there was no issue, in the first place), and this other fabricant (Lorenzo, I think) has already stated that there was no illegal use of any IP, nor any offense taken, and that he approves the new brand of miniatures MK1881 is about to release in Kickstarter (or something like this).

Personally, I don't know them that well, but MK1881 has asked the administrators here to be reinstated, and so far he hasn't received any answer. It may be due to Christmas and that all, but I think he wishes to start the funding campaign after the holidays, so maybe it would be nice to let him express here his product soon enough.

Thank you in advance,

Manuel.

Actually Manuel, that is not true.

The original artist has stated the art violates his IP and he has only given the rights to Greebo to produce them. He in fact signed up just to come on the site and say that.

MK1881 should just run a crowdfunding campaign for their Wood and High Elf sculpted teams which are completely originally and just bury enough money into the funding to pay for creating the Dark Elf team without mentioning it at all in the KickStarter as they are mixing two great concepts they worked hard on and deserve advertising with one that still has most people upset. As someone who does consulting work, my advice to him is to focus on the positive and go for that and if he wants to produce those Dark Elves, he can but should do them silently without including them into the KickStarter.

If you want to deliver that message back to him, great. I personally would gladly pledge for a KickStater or Indiegogo campaign that was just for the Wood and High Elf teams. However if he includes the Dark Elf team in the crowdfunding, then I will have no choice but to not pledge on the crowdfunding campaign at all on principal. I hope he can get that message as this matters to me. This hobby is too small to have the type of manuever he did approved of. There is no question at all to me that his Dark Elf sculpts are based on another artist's work that he did not pay to use. As a result I'm in for his crowdfunding for 2 full teams if it is just Wood and High Elf. I'm not in at all if the Dark Elves are mentioned anywhere in the crowdfunding. And I'm guessing the admin of TFF based on past actions would feel the same about advertising the crowdfunding on TFF. My advice to MK1881 is simple. Focus on the good. If you try to include the Dark Elf team in your crowdfunding because you believe no one can tell you what to do. Then just be ready to understand that it will limit you in some ways for your advertising.

I am sure that a campaign that did not include images stolen from another person would have no issues being advertised and discussed on the site.

Point of order - he was never banned, nor has he contacted the admin team. In fact I don't believe he's ever had an account here.
But he would be banned as he has taken artwork that does not have permission to use (as confirmed by Greebo and the artworks artist) to produce a team. Nor would he be allowed to promote his crowd funding for them for that reason.

Well, you see, I'm not the spokesman of this guy, but I would rather hear all the parts of the story. He just stated on Facebook that he had been banned from here, and asked if someone knew why. He seems a nice guy to me, he's models are great, and without any further proof, you saying he has infringed something has the same value as he saying the opposite.

I think he should come here and discuss with you the points you are accusing him of, as he will know the details far better than me. If he was banned, then the ban should be removed so that he can defend himself. If he was not... well, then there's obviously something missing in the history. Darkson says he wasn't. He says he was (and that all posts regarding his campaign were deleted or edited). I'm in no position to infer the truth.

Just my two cents.

Manuel wrote:Well, you see, I'm not the spokesman of this guy, but I would rather hear all the parts of the story. He just stated on Facebook that he had been banned from here, and asked if someone knew why. He seems a nice guy to me, he's models are great, and without any further proof, you saying he has infringed something has the same value as he saying the opposite.

I think he should come here and discuss with you the points you are accusing him of, as he will know the details far better than me. If he was banned, then the ban should be removed so that he can defend himself. If he was not... well, then there's obviously something missing in the history. Darkson says he wasn't. He says he was (and that all posts regarding his campaign were deleted or edited). I'm in no position to infer the truth.

Just my two cents.

Look at the greebo delves then the others, then greebo again. Then have a think and make some inferences.
Just my two cents

We have not banned Mark Kirby of MK1881 (although now it has been revealed that there is no Mark Kirby it is just a fake ID for Christian Kirylo). The ban in question is only in regards to Christian Kirylo who is the owner of MK1881 (e.g. "Molten" and the user formerly posting as "Rolljordan"), in which case then yes, he is banned. he knows the reason for this, and hasn't contacted the admins about it (he has at least two of our email addresses and FB accounts). We have emails in to the original artist now to see if we can find out if he is fine with the MK1881 sculpts as he originally posted on TFF that he was not. What Greebo says on this matter is not important as Greebo was involved in a lawsuit with Christian and could effect what he is willing to say, what he might be legally required to say, or what he will not say on behalf of Christian as a result. If we hear from the original artist that he is okay with MK1881 using his images than the ban will be removed from Christian's account.

Hi everybody, it's Max here ...Even Rolljrodan have used my concepts without any kind of authorization, I've deiced to let him use models already done and published because have spent lots of money and I'm good guy.
However I've given all my Dark elf concept to Greebo to produce them, and that's all ^^.

MK1881 via Facebook wrote:A quick note and hope this will answer many questions I have received up to date.
Several have contacted me in regards to the similarities of the Tanatos to the concepts drawn by Max Gallo in late 2010 and published in 2011 as Simon Ashe have noted below on the 14th of November. Greebo has contacted me on the 10th and after discussing about the project it was clear that I have rights to produce such models as stated by Lorenzo on TFF all concepts and ideas he had between 2009 and late 2012 are common to him and his old partner.
As usual no one that had the rights to ask have asked for actual facts before making assumptions.
Well I can state that now after a few calls and emails all is defined and good to go. Lorenzo is making his models while we are producing the Tanatos, yes they will be similar as many other projects will probably be in the future like the Legio Dwarves, Nippo Goblin and more.

Last 2 emails I have from Lorenzo from the 11th state: (translation) ''Now everything is ok!'' referring to Max getting mad about his designs. And again on the 19th he states: (translation) ''I just called him!! Finally all is solved everything about everything! We will also do the Darkelves using the concepts, as I already said, at the worst we will have similar models, it is ok with me and now even Massimiliano agrees since I have explained him the reason for them being used. Goodbye and happy holidays also to your family! Note these are actual emails not assumptions, and no legal treat is behind them as some may assume''.

As said legal advice was used in the split but just to define smaller details about the scission, the relationship between Lorenzo and Chris has always been friendly and still continues to be so, we never ended in court as some have stated (again with no facts just assumptions again)

I hope this will clear once for all facts before creating another useless witch hunt. Please do not reply to this post, if you have pertinent questions I will reply in private.

Emphasis mine on the pertinent points as the author has English as a second language.

Macs Gallo wrote:Hi everybody, it's Max here ...Even Rolljrodan have used my concepts without any kind of authorization

Emphasis mine on the pertinent points as the author has English as a second language.

For the record on the above post. Rolljordan/Molten was born in Chicago and went to college in Maryland. So while he now lives in Italy and speaks very fluent Italian it is not his second language as you have stated.

Also I understand this event was confusing but JT-Y you missed the important points that explained what happened based on reading all the items on several different forums and FB pages.

1) Rolljordan sued Greebo. While it did not go to court it did get settled out of court with the lawyers and all that fun jazz.
2) As part of the out of court settlement, they agreed to share concepts through 2012.
3) The Dark Elves fell in that range but Greebo had never paid Max for the art. IE the art was NOT Greebo's property for Rolljordan to get share concepts with.
4) Rolljordan never revealed to Greebo that he was running MK1881.

Add all 4 of these up and you get the following result:
a) Rolljordan did not legally have the rights to produce sculpts from that artwork since it was not the property of Greebo to end up qualifying for shared rights from the lawsuit out of court settlement.
b) Since Max had never sold the rights to his artwork he had the right to call this IP theft.
c) Giving Rolljordan the benefit of the doubt on this one, while his use of the images was actually IP theft, he misunderstood that the images were not the property of Greebo and so assumed he could use them as part of the settlement.

So was it IP theft = yes
Did Rolljordan know it was IP theft = most likely not
Was the ban that the Mods choose to do in the right = seems to me yes at the time
Does Max's post now solve this = I would say yes and based on molten posting a thread tonight it would appear the Mods agreed

As someone who was interested in this and following it across multiple sites, I just wanted to post as the way your post is written is not accurate matching up of the events.

#5 to what Slinky said: Molten never admitted to the admins he was running, or even part of, MK1881 (and yes, he was asked). If he had, there might not have been a need for a ban.

I'd also point out that both Greebo and Max have posted on this forum that no-one else had permission to use the artwork, and those posts were not denied/clarified in emails the admins were having with both parties. So from the information we had (and other information) the ban was correct.

Whatever. I shouldn't care. But lest opinions be formed based solely on the repetition of a few perceived truths let us all be clear that the above statement tells us something different. If preconceived notions get in the way of clear thought it is not my problem.

As regards IP theft, as I've said before the artist needs to protect his work better before posting it online and forgetting it for three years. It isn't expensive or hard to do. I'd tell him how if he wasn't so busy being a martyr.
Additionally, the ownership of Dark Elves isn't something the artist can claim. The ownership of Dark Elves in a GW style for a GW game makes the concepts fan produced art and something very hard for the artist to claim unique IP on.
Take that further and consider the agreement made between Greebo and Rolljordan and we have an issue of payment rather than permission. Well I hope the artist gets paid and that the payment is correct when received. Based on personal experience of the side everyone here is supporting he's pissing into the wind.

JT-Y wrote:Whatever. I shouldn't care. But lest opinions be formed based solely on the repetition of a few perceived truths let us all be clear that the above statement tells us something different.

Never seen a single post on TFF that Greebo and Rolljordan actually went to court so this is an incorrect statement.

If preconceived notions get in the way of clear thought it is not my problem.

Like yours that Rolljordan was not born and raised in the USA?

As regards IP theft, as I've said before the artist needs to protect his work better

As an artist who relies on it for my income I am so glad that the vast majority of the people on forums do not agree with you at all.

Well I hope the artist gets paid and that the payment is correct when received. Based on personal experience of the side everyone here is supporting he's pissing into the wind.

Do you even check anything before you post slams against companies. So I assume in this case the side everyone is supporting is Greebo. And that you believe Greebo will not pay Max based on your statement. When there is already a thread on TFF about how Greebo has worked with and paid Max to produce the Dark Elves.

If you want to defend Rolljordan JT-Y (which is fine for you to do so), do it without falsely making statements against another company.

I didn't know Rolljordan was born in the US, now I do.

Beyond that, I know exactly what I'm referring to. I'm not slamming anyone, but I do personally feel one party here is unreliable in my eyes (your mileage may vary, I hope it does).
But I'm not going to share and nor will I. For all intents and purposes our issue has been resolved as far as the other party is concerned. I simply cannot be bothered to raise the error so I'll leave it and not get involved again. It's easier for me.

But I will grind my teeth because first impressions count. Sadly the second impression wasn't great either.
Rarely are things totally as in the open as they may appear on internet fora. There is invariably more to any story than the majority of posters or readers know, hence why I cross-posted the above quote and hilighted the pertinent lines. Rather than defend Rolljordan I'd encourage people to be more impartial and less emotional before reacting. All parties have had their say, and I feel that's enough.
To me at least I can see what's happened, and it's a sorry state of affairs that it got handled in public at all. I imagine all parties would take back some posts online if they could.

Aside from that and on a personal note...

As an artist (and I use the term in a very cavalier way in my case I'll be the first to admit) whom no longer has to rely upon it for my income, I'd say protect your work. If you don't, don't be surprised to see it elsewhere. Not everyone is honest, Google up ''Not Failcast'' for an amazing example.
As I've said before on this very forum, my work crops up everywhere, some uses I know about before hand, most I don't. Some uses I object to but most I don't. Some profit from it and good luck to them, but the majority are just decorating their website/fanzine/whatever, which I invariably love to see and am most often hugely flattered by. In any case it's very rare indeed that I'd bother to complain as I'm in the habit of sharing my work freely and without protecting it.
Even GW has used work of mine without asking, and used something I had no idea they even possessed pictures of. I suspect in that instance the person whom owns that work now may have profited from it's use, but so what. It doesn't harm me in the long run.

We're too small of a community to be falling out over it.

That's a needlessly long post. Perhaps I do care, but I think I care more about seeing people falling out over something that should have been kept private in the first case.

JT-Y wrote:Beyond that, I know exactly what I'm referring to. I'm not slamming anyone, but I do personally feel one party here is unreliable in my eyes (your mileage may vary, I hope it does).
But I'm not going to share and nor will I. For all intents and purposes our issue has been resolved as far as the other party is concerned. I simply cannot be bothered to raise the error.

But you don't have to.

You already brought up in public that you felt that Greebo used images of yours without paying you. Yet within 48 hours of you posting it, you posted that he was reaching out to you to fix a problem. Clearly if was willing to do this I don't see how he gets painted with the "unreliable" paintbrush by you unless you had previously contact him about it and he had refused to pay. But based on Greebo's past actions, I would venture to guess you never contacted him and just let it sit and grate on you until now you brand him as unreliable even though you can post now that the issue is resolved. However it is not resolved because you are still willing to post things like:
"Based on personal experience of the side everyone here is supporting he's pissing into the wind."
So you are willing to state you believe he would refuse to pay an artist (which is a pretty bad thing for a mini company to do) when if I'm reading all your own posts on TFF correctly, it was a legitimate error on Greebo's part that he immediately worked to fix when you brought it up.

If preconceived notions get in the way of clear thought it is not my problem.

Is that not what you are doing now. Slamming a company for a problem that you never addressed to the point it now allows you to state things on a preconceived notion? IE your post about believing Greebo would not pay Max. I'm really not trying to get in your face about it, but you are guilty in your own posts of the thing you are stating you are trying to stop on TFF. I'm just posting to try and hopefully help you see that so that your request to TFF might also be reflective to yourself.

We're too small of a community to be falling out over it.

That's a needlessly long post. Perhaps I do care, but I think I care more about seeing people falling out over something that should have been kept private in the first case.

I fully agree with you on this one. And I hope whatever has or has not transpired between you and Greebo could fall in this category for the future as well.

JT-Y wrote:I'd say protect your work. If you don't, don't be surprised to see it elsewhere. Not everyone is honest, Google up ''Not Failcast'' for an amazing example.

Not exactly a great example, as that stuff is protected, and is still copied (if it's the same people, this is at least the 3rd company they've run it from).