Talk Fantasy Football

So imagine for a moment I'm a noob. (In fact as far as these rosters/races go I am!)

GalakStarscraper wrote:

gonzolo wrote:so are Pact, Slann and Underworld officially part of it now? seeing as they weren't actually in the rules document itself...

They were not part of LRB 5.0+ so no they are not in LRB 6.0

They are BBRC endorsed (means the BBRC has voted 5-0 that they should be part of LRB 6.0) and they are NAF endorsed. GW won't put them in the rulebook due to miniature availability.

Galak

So where pray tell, do I find the rules for these teams? They don't appear in the official rulebook on the GW site, and they're not going to appear in the official LRB 6.0 either.
So as a noob (or in actuality an old timer returning) I could turn up at a tourney and find myself facing a roster that I've not only never seen before but apparently doesn't actually exist anywhere I can easily access.

"Ah... (my opponent might say) "...but they did once exist in experimental guise under LRB 4.785b v.4, you used to be able to download it from somewhere or other but GW put a stop to that. You weren't playing back then? No, they aren't official and they aren't in the rulebook, but they were unofficially endorsed when the roster was available.."

Now I know that as a NAF member I can access these rosters through the STARS utility, but what good is that to Joe Noob ? What good is it doing to have "endorsed/but not in the rulebook/quasi-official" races that exist in some sort of grey limbo?

Good Question, I would suggest tournament organisers put any house rules in their tournament rulepack...

Deathwing wrote:
So where pray tell, do I find the rules for these teams? They don't appear in the official rulebook on the GW site, and they're not going to appear in the official LRB 6.0 either.
So as a noob (or in actuality an old timer returning) I could turn up at a tourney and find myself facing a roster that I've not only never seen before but apparently doesn't actually exist anywhere I can easily access.

The teams were linked to here on this site viewtopic.php?t=25976
but it is a broken link now. I guess that is bc of the IP Lawyer letters?

I wonder though, for these three teams, since they are not official teams, can GW IP lawyers complain if someone prints them online- if they aren't official then they are not protected right? maybe change names from IP protected names to things like "froggy" ?

But the lists are out there, so organizers can print them in their tourney handout/online registration area.

I think you summed up the situation perfectly.

Now, the flip side is that all of the teams were designed to be Tier 1.5 and a lot of people feel they add to the game as a whole, so the experience you recount is an acceptable consequence.

I'm not sure exactly what the correct answer is. I suspect that the teams will either die off in the next 5 years at tournaments, or they will gain a scene wide "official but unofficial" status.

In truth, almost all tournaments are houseruled anyway as they allow advancement, full ressurection, etc. I suggest any tournament organizer treat these teams as house rules and post them next to the other house rules.

Deathwing wrote:So imagine for a moment I'm a noob. (In fact as far as these rosters/races go I am!)

So where pray tell, do I find the rules for these teams? They don't appear in the official rulebook on the GW site, and they're not going to appear in the official LRB 6.0 either.
So as a noob (or in actuality an old timer returning) I could turn up at a tourney and find myself facing a roster that I've not only never seen before but apparently doesn't actually exist anywhere I can easily access.

Two part answer.

Part 1: All tournaments here in the section for teams allowed in the rules pack say "All official LRB 6.0 + the 3 new teams (link to them)". Given this is how we've been doing it in the USA for a year now ... I don't see why this would change.

Part 2: There are 3 locations to get the rules:

Location 1: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=29251 (permanent sticky thread)

Location 2: http://www.thenaf.net/index.php?module= ... =6&start=0 (NAF dowload for the 3 new teams that they endorse)

Location 3:
http://www.bbfigs.com/index.php?option=chaospact
http://www.bbfigs.com/index.php?option=slann
http://www.bbfigs.com/index.php?option=underworld

And Jural ... I don't see these teams dying out. Too many know about them. Most leagues already use them ... things like RJ's Horned Frog team make folks think about it. BBFigs.com will continue to have areas of the store to sell the teams. 4 of the 5 NAF Majors allow the teams (and my understanding will continue to do so). The Lizardman team in BB Compendium #1 became official eventually because so many folks used the teams anyway. That was a team in unofficial official state for over 5 years and it didn't die out. These 3 teams have even more exposure than the Lizardman team did ... so we already have a good example that the community is not one to forgot about good ideas.

Galak

OK, thanks for the links Tom. The permanent sticky here will help folks.

What I'm finding difficult to deal with is this whole 'grey area'. The LRB 6.0 ruleset was/is to be 'set in stone' for the next few years. The Official Rules, as published by GW and laid down in black and white. Thanks to the hard work of the BBRC and the input of the community, hello stability. No more Rules Reviews, no more experimental rules... hello accessibility for all. What we're going to have now is an Official Ruleset with 'semi-official' but widely accepted (amongst the existing community) additions.

So what is exactly the status of these rosters?

Darkson wrote: ...they're official, but not in the rulebook.

Doubleskulls wrote:Darkson they are not "official" whatever Galak might have posted on the subject. They aren't in the printed rule book and won't be in LRB6 (barring a seismic shift in GW policy).

That said the BBRC has endorsed the teams and they would be being slated to be official in LRB6, however GW (not even JJ) have said no....

They are allowed in NAF sanctioned games too.

GalakStarscraper wrote:

Darkson wrote:If JJ says they're official, that's good enough for me.

I agree.

To be clear though JJ is weird on this subject.

He voted twice that the teams should be official in the BBRC votes.

He endorsed the teams receiving NAF sanctioning.

He supported the teams being included in the official GW tournaments the Chaos Cup and the Dungeonbowl.

But if you ask him if the teams are official he says no and gives you the answer that Ian gave.

Galak

GalakStarscraper wrote:

Doubleskulls wrote:Darkson they are not "official" whatever Galak might have posted on the subject.

I think Ian you have to "deal" with the fact that some folks think JJ and the BBRC voting to approve the teams, the NAF allowing them in the rankings, and 2 of the official GW run Major tournaments allowing them to be played counts in their mind as "official" even if they are not "official" as you use the word....

... I'm not saying the teams are official as you interpret that word.....

Galak

Are these rosters Official or not? ( Question is rhetorical.)
We've arrived at the point where is there is apparently no simple one word answer to a very simple question.

Just personal musing now.....
If RJ hadn't produced such an exquisite ( and popular!) Frog team ( not forgetting Goblinforge's version either) would we be in this situation now? I wonder whether the Slann roster was well received and popular enough for independent companies to fill a vacant market niche or whether the beauty of the miniatures themselves actually encouraged people to buy and start playing Slann who might not have otherwise considered it? Are we getting close to the point where quality of miniatures available is impacting on the ruleset? I'm not convinced that the cart has overtaken the horse, but the cart may well be pushing the horse along a little....hmmm...interesting... my gut instinct is that if there had been no 'frog' miniatures available (or at least none that had been so popularly received) then there may well have been less of an issue with 'not official' amongst the community. I may well be wrong on that though... a little out of the loop recently.

Likewise, did the NAF's decision to rank the 'semi-official' teams in turn drive sales and encourage tournament organisers to include the 3 rosters or did that reflect existing popularity amongst membership and tournament organisers? That's an equation I couldn't begin to judge the balance of from outside ( although I'd have personally weighted it heavily from inside..apologies for the digression). Regardless, when I see 'NAF endorsed' is being linked with how 'official' (or otherwise) something should be considered or interpreted it gives me pause for thought. The NAF was never conceived to have any part of (or any say in) the rule making process. If indeed the NAF did respond to their membership's wishes to include unofficial/experimental rosters in their rankings than that's one thing. For anybody to infer that any such decision should give any more 'official legitimacy' is quite another and crosses the line. An indicator of popular acceptance; yes... a direct correlation.... no.

As I said, just personal musing, not really looking for any 'answers'. A lot of 'ifs and buts' involved. A bit of discussion welcome though.

Whatever. We are where we are, a complicated combination of a lot of factors has opened Pandora's Box on this, but the 'fudge' and lack of clarity is far from ideal. We've got to make the best of it I suppose.

Joe Noob? I know it's a simple question. No, there is no clear or simple answer. Have you got half an hour? Good. Sit down and I'll try and explain why...."

Deathwing - you are quoting posts made whilst we were still formalising the official position. I'm pretty sure the BBRC all agree (JJ & Galak included) that the new races are not official but have been endorsed by the BBRC/NAF.

I'm pretty certain that the NAF decision has encouraged people to buy and use the teams because if they weren't "tournament legal" then fewer people would want to play them. The extent to which that has affected sales of RJs team (for instance) I don't know.

DoubleSkulls wrote:Deathwing - you are quoting posts made whilst we were still formalising the official position. I'm pretty sure the BBRC all agree (JJ & Galak included) that the new races are not official but have been endorsed by the BBRC/NAF.

Maybe I'm splitting hairs here Ian, but Tom's sticky link is titled "Official LRB 6.0 Rules for Chaos Pact, Slann and Underworld".
So 'formalised official position' is Unofficial?

I think Tom is trying to make it clear that the link was to the endorsed version of those teams, and not just random house rules. I've modified the title to clarify.

The formalised position of the BBRC is that, for those who care about these things, that they are not an official part of the game - but have been endorsed by the NAF and BBRC for use. So apart from GW corporate saying they can't be official they have gone through the whole process that would have been required for them to be official.

DoubleSkulls wrote:Deathwing - you are quoting posts made whilst we were still formalising the official position. I'm pretty sure the BBRC all agree (JJ & Galak included) that the new races are not official but have been endorsed by the BBRC/NAF.

Definitely all 5 BBRC members would say they are not official but have been fully endorsed by the BBRC (and Jervis is included when we say BBRC) and NAF. (which in my personal opinion is 900 times more important than a dumb suit at GW saying they are official)

And Woody ... I'm sorry but your timing since you've been out of the loop is REALLY off. Especially if you are really suggesting that RJ's figures had any influence on what happened to these teams. Okay ... so a quick look at the timeline.

The Slann, Chaos Pact and Underworld teams were made officially experimental back in Fall 2005 by Jervis himself.

When the BBRC met in Oct 2007 all 5 members voted to add the teams to LRB 6.0 (based on 2 years of playtesting results) ... however ... Jervis got back to us and said that he found out that he could not from GW execs.

The NAF ran polls to see if folks wanted these teams to be added to the NAF allowed teams. The poll was overwhelming yes. At that point Jim Lanier called Jervis and asked him directly about his position on the 3 teams. Jervis confirmed that he endorsed the 3 teams and believed it was fine for the NAF to add them in. (ie Jervis was really fine with these being official teams ... it was his higher ups saying no).

So the NAF adds them in after checking with the members and the BBRC ... that was Oct. 2008.

Nov 2008 ... Goblin Forge releases a Frog team ... please note Woody that by this time the teams had already been voted on by the BBRC TWICE! to make them official (Oct 2007 and Oct 2008) if GW would allow it AND the NAF had already added them to the ranking system.

Jan 2009 ... BBFigs.com starts selling Underworld team sets

June 2009 ... BBFigs.com starts selling Chaos Pact team sets and Rolljordan releases their Frog team. Please note ... when you suggest that this team is what drove the team to be where it is ... by this time if you look at the timeline ... its just something supporting something that already was out there.

===

Personally Woody ... I don't see the issue here at all. I went through a period of time where every league I played in used the Lizardman team and they were not in the official rulebook either. But I knew about them anyway from the league commish. BB went on for years with leagues all over the world having Lizardmen teams that were not in the Blood Bowl or Death Zone rulesbook. The 3 new teams are no different than that ... and in my opinion after being around since 2005 ... don't appear to be vanishing off the radar anytime soon.

Galak

Deathwing wrote:Joe Noob? I know it's a simple question. No, there is no clear or simple answer. Have you got half an hour? Good. Sit down and I'll try and explain why...."

Woody ... really??? There is a clear and simple answer and you don't need half an hour unless you having the discussion over dinner and need to eat for 30 seconds after each word you speak.

Try it with 2 sentences like I do that take care of it all very easy.

"The answer to your question is that anyone who actually matters in the world of Blood Bowl from the creator, to the rules committee, to the elected officials of the world tournament organization say you should use with these teams in league and tournament play and have fun. The only person who says you should not is a soulless accountant at GW and if you are smart you won't listen to him or care what he says."

Galak

As usual, Bravo Galak. *clapping*

The simple answer is: "as good as official".

Galak is "Da' man"

OK, thanks Tom. Timeline clears some things for me.

Remember this from the first ever TBB figure painting contest back in the day?

...you should use with these teams in league and tournament play and have fun.

Perhaps I'll paint up the rest of the team and do exactly that!