As we all know, the BBRC is seriously considering bringing back the SPPs for fouling. From my 3rd edition experience I can't say I'd like to do that.
When I played 3rd edition there were almost no dirty players, but fouling was still done whenever possible. It was the usual source of SPPs for just about any player other than the scorers, and even the scorers fouled to augment their SPP total. After all the important moves were made, every turn ended with looking for a way to get a foul for whoever needs the 2 SPPs the most. I hated that type of playing, and the current ruleset eliminated it cleanly.
However, if the "masses" really want their SPPs back, I guess I'll have to find other ways to discourage that type of behavior. Currently there has been discussion to remove the +1 to the armour roll for a foul, but that won't help much where I'm concerned.
There is one condition on which I'd accept fouling SPPs. I want a foul to be equal to a block. You can either foul with a block action, and not move, or foul as part of a blitz and forfeit your opportunity to block on a blitz. This might be harsh, but it would make coaches keep any players who need the SPPs in the action to get block foul opportunities. A black orc, skeleton, or saurus wouldn't have much of a problem, but your thrower will have to waste a blitz or earn his SPPs by throwing. Because setting up a foul would be more difficult, we could keep the +1 modifier for the armour roll to make fouls worth trying.
So, what does everyone else think?
Pink Horror
Fouling for SPPs
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Pink Horror
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Fouling for SPPs
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Ghost of Pariah
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Are you saying that the foul would take place immediately after the block (or blitz) failed to break the armor or fail to cause sufficient injury?
I like this idea. It has some serious merit!
Fouling should be done by the brutes of the team.
The only problem I see is that this kinda hurts the gobbos who should be notorious for fouling!
I like this idea. It has some serious merit!
Fouling should be done by the brutes of the team.
The only problem I see is that this kinda hurts the gobbos who should be notorious for fouling!
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Traitor of the NBA!
I hate you all!
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Vesticle
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Long mathematical analysis
Person goes to foul a human lineman.
Roll to penetrate armor, we'll say with one assist. Sometimes you get two, but less often, and any more than that and I would say you're problems aren't coming from fouling, but letting your players get mobbed without any help. So he gets a +2 to roll a 9, resulting in a 7. Odds: 21/36, or 58.3&
Roll to injure. Needed for a casualty: 10+ Odds: 6/36, or 16.7%. Total odds: 126/1296 or 9.7% Average expected SPP gain: a bit less than 1/5th of a point.
Risk: First time in the half, 1/6th chance of losing the player for the rest of the game and a turnover. 1/6th chance, if caught, to argue the call successfully. Total, 5/36 or 13.9%
Second time: Either your opponent has decided to foul in return and also take part and reap the benefits of SPP for fouling, in which case it goes both ways, or he has decided to not foul, most likely to try to discourage you from fouling a second time in the half. 3/6 chance of losing the player for the rest of the game and a turnover. 1/6th chance, if caught, to argue the call successfully. Total, 15/36 or 41.7%
Compare to, quick pass between 2 human linemen to try to gain SP. Pass attempt: 4/6, or 66.7% Chance to catch: 4/6, or 66.7% Total accurate: 16/36 or 44.4% Chance to scatter onto the receiver again if inaccurate: 24/512 or 4.7% Chance to catch inaccurate pass: 3/6 or 50% Total inaccurate: 72/3072 or 2.3% Total completion chance: 45.2% Expected SPP: a bit under 1/2 of a point. Considering you only have the ball half the time, say a bit under 1/4th of a point.
Risk: 54.8% chance of turnover and dropped ball.
Notes: Team re-rolls and increased stats can be used to increase chances, while they cannot be used to help an armor or injury rolls. Skills can help both the chance of passing successfully and causing a casualty, though no official team can start with a player who has the "Dirty Player" skill (Excepting Borak who is often not allowed, and can't gain SPP anyway), over half of them start with at least one player with AG4, Pass, or Catch.
Other comparison: human linemen blocks human lineman with 1 assist
Chance to knock over: 27/36 or 75%
Chance to penetrate armor (9+): 10/36 or 27.8%
Chance for casualty (10+): 6/36 or 16.7%
Total chance for casualty: 3.5%
Expected SPP: About 1/14th of a point per block under this situation.
Risk: Chance of blocker down and turnover: 1/36 or 2.8%
Chance of blocker injury (9+): 10/36 or 27.8% Total injury: 10/1296 or .8%
Total chance of blocker casualty: .12%
Notes: Skills, stats, and team re-rolls can aid or detriment the chance of success. Every official team (including halfings and goblings) can begin with more than one player with applicable skills or stats. Also, blocks are limited to one blitz per turn, but any number of blocks can be made in a given turn.
I probably lost most of you by now, but that's ok.
I just figured it'd be a good start to put some hard numbers out...
Roll to penetrate armor, we'll say with one assist. Sometimes you get two, but less often, and any more than that and I would say you're problems aren't coming from fouling, but letting your players get mobbed without any help. So he gets a +2 to roll a 9, resulting in a 7. Odds: 21/36, or 58.3&
Roll to injure. Needed for a casualty: 10+ Odds: 6/36, or 16.7%. Total odds: 126/1296 or 9.7% Average expected SPP gain: a bit less than 1/5th of a point.
Risk: First time in the half, 1/6th chance of losing the player for the rest of the game and a turnover. 1/6th chance, if caught, to argue the call successfully. Total, 5/36 or 13.9%
Second time: Either your opponent has decided to foul in return and also take part and reap the benefits of SPP for fouling, in which case it goes both ways, or he has decided to not foul, most likely to try to discourage you from fouling a second time in the half. 3/6 chance of losing the player for the rest of the game and a turnover. 1/6th chance, if caught, to argue the call successfully. Total, 15/36 or 41.7%
Compare to, quick pass between 2 human linemen to try to gain SP. Pass attempt: 4/6, or 66.7% Chance to catch: 4/6, or 66.7% Total accurate: 16/36 or 44.4% Chance to scatter onto the receiver again if inaccurate: 24/512 or 4.7% Chance to catch inaccurate pass: 3/6 or 50% Total inaccurate: 72/3072 or 2.3% Total completion chance: 45.2% Expected SPP: a bit under 1/2 of a point. Considering you only have the ball half the time, say a bit under 1/4th of a point.
Risk: 54.8% chance of turnover and dropped ball.
Notes: Team re-rolls and increased stats can be used to increase chances, while they cannot be used to help an armor or injury rolls. Skills can help both the chance of passing successfully and causing a casualty, though no official team can start with a player who has the "Dirty Player" skill (Excepting Borak who is often not allowed, and can't gain SPP anyway), over half of them start with at least one player with AG4, Pass, or Catch.
Other comparison: human linemen blocks human lineman with 1 assist
Chance to knock over: 27/36 or 75%
Chance to penetrate armor (9+): 10/36 or 27.8%
Chance for casualty (10+): 6/36 or 16.7%
Total chance for casualty: 3.5%
Expected SPP: About 1/14th of a point per block under this situation.
Risk: Chance of blocker down and turnover: 1/36 or 2.8%
Chance of blocker injury (9+): 10/36 or 27.8% Total injury: 10/1296 or .8%
Total chance of blocker casualty: .12%
Notes: Skills, stats, and team re-rolls can aid or detriment the chance of success. Every official team (including halfings and goblings) can begin with more than one player with applicable skills or stats. Also, blocks are limited to one blitz per turn, but any number of blocks can be made in a given turn.
I probably lost most of you by now, but that's ok.
I just figured it'd be a good start to put some hard numbers out...Reason: ''
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Pink Horror
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Um, no Pariah, though that could be a good skill to add to the game.
My version of fouling would work like the chainsaw. You declare a blitz. Then you run up next to a prone guy and foul him. Or, you declare a block, and then foul someone who's standing next to you.
To Vesticle, this is not about numbers. I don't care what the chance of success is. The chance of success does not change the type of behavior that the current rules thankfully prevents - fouling for SPPs. As long as you don't have to risk too much, and in this case the risk is being sent off for the game 1/6 of the time, yo might as well take any realistic chance you can get. If the the foul works 1/5 of the time or 1/25 of the time, it doesn't matter.
Pink Horror
My version of fouling would work like the chainsaw. You declare a blitz. Then you run up next to a prone guy and foul him. Or, you declare a block, and then foul someone who's standing next to you.
To Vesticle, this is not about numbers. I don't care what the chance of success is. The chance of success does not change the type of behavior that the current rules thankfully prevents - fouling for SPPs. As long as you don't have to risk too much, and in this case the risk is being sent off for the game 1/6 of the time, yo might as well take any realistic chance you can get. If the the foul works 1/5 of the time or 1/25 of the time, it doesn't matter.
Pink Horror
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DoubleSkulls
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As I understand the new proposals there are going to be no modifiers to injury rolls (or rerolling them) at all, and the chance of getting sent off will remain 1/6. So the chance of getting SPPs (i.e. a casualty) is lower than the chance of getting sent off (as there is a chance you'll fail armour). Not a very good return if you ask me.
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Acerak
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As we all know, the BBRC is seriously considering bringing back the SPPs for fouling.
To be accurate, one BBRC member is considering playtesting changes that would change the success rates for fouling, thus allowing for a re-introduction of SPPs for all casualties.
I understand that it's not fun to watch your opponent attack one of your prone players just to get a skill for one of his players. But players throw "gratuitous blocks" and "gratuitous passes" all the time for this same purpose. I don't appreciate that, either, but I don't see a problem.
That out of the way: If the odds of getting tossed out of the game severely outweigh the odds of getting the SPPs, then it's not a good source for player development. You contend that the odds don't matter if you're looking at a 16% chance to go out of the game. But a basic foul would give you about a 4% chance to pick up a casualty. That means the worst failure rate (your player gone for the game) is 4 times worse than the best success rate (opposing player suffers a casualty).
To put that in perspective, that "4 times worse" ratio holds up every time a Halfling throws a 2-die defender's choice block at an AV7 player who lacks Block. The success rate is about 1.7%, the failure rate is about 7.2%. And any coach who routinely throws such blocks expecting them to work for the development of his team has clearly erred. Same thing here.
Fouls are Fouls, Blocks are Blocks, Blitzes are Blitzes. I'd prefer to test things as written before converting one action into another.
-Chet
To be accurate, one BBRC member is considering playtesting changes that would change the success rates for fouling, thus allowing for a re-introduction of SPPs for all casualties.
I understand that it's not fun to watch your opponent attack one of your prone players just to get a skill for one of his players. But players throw "gratuitous blocks" and "gratuitous passes" all the time for this same purpose. I don't appreciate that, either, but I don't see a problem.
That out of the way: If the odds of getting tossed out of the game severely outweigh the odds of getting the SPPs, then it's not a good source for player development. You contend that the odds don't matter if you're looking at a 16% chance to go out of the game. But a basic foul would give you about a 4% chance to pick up a casualty. That means the worst failure rate (your player gone for the game) is 4 times worse than the best success rate (opposing player suffers a casualty).
To put that in perspective, that "4 times worse" ratio holds up every time a Halfling throws a 2-die defender's choice block at an AV7 player who lacks Block. The success rate is about 1.7%, the failure rate is about 7.2%. And any coach who routinely throws such blocks expecting them to work for the development of his team has clearly erred. Same thing here.
Fouls are Fouls, Blocks are Blocks, Blitzes are Blitzes. I'd prefer to test things as written before converting one action into another.
-Chet
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Pink Horror
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Halfling blocks potentially hurt the halfling and cause more turnovers. There's no comparison.
I don't mind gratuitous blocks or passes much because sometimes that's done in real life to build experience. I'm still having problems with the whole idea that a player can become better by fouling. Earning SPPs for a foul is like earning SPPs for an inaccurate pass to me.
You compare the numbers as if that's all there is to it. Yes, 16% is bigger than 4%, but so what? What if you had a 4% chance to give every member of your team an MVP that fails and causes a turnover 16% of the time? You'd take that, right? Well, 2 SPPs in clearly not the same, but it just may be worth it too.
What are you really risking when you foul for SPPs? If you have a full bench and the lead you can start doing it in the first half without impairing your team much at all. Sure, your team will have a slightly lower advantage 16% of the time, but that minor change in advantage is worth even a 2 or 3 percent chance at 2 SPPs if you ask me.
Pink Horror
I don't mind gratuitous blocks or passes much because sometimes that's done in real life to build experience. I'm still having problems with the whole idea that a player can become better by fouling. Earning SPPs for a foul is like earning SPPs for an inaccurate pass to me.
You compare the numbers as if that's all there is to it. Yes, 16% is bigger than 4%, but so what? What if you had a 4% chance to give every member of your team an MVP that fails and causes a turnover 16% of the time? You'd take that, right? Well, 2 SPPs in clearly not the same, but it just may be worth it too.
What are you really risking when you foul for SPPs? If you have a full bench and the lead you can start doing it in the first half without impairing your team much at all. Sure, your team will have a slightly lower advantage 16% of the time, but that minor change in advantage is worth even a 2 or 3 percent chance at 2 SPPs if you ask me.
Pink Horror
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wesleytj
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I want SPP's for all casualties caused by a player. Obviously if a guy falls on a GFI in the open nobody gets a cas, but whenever it's caused by a block or foul there should be spps awarded.
Sure that means people will foul more. This is blood bowl, not shiny-happy-people bowl. Fouling is part of the flavor of the game, we've taken that away more than enough. I know this may come as a shock to some people here, but your team's best player should actually die now and then
Incidentally, the way I talk you'd think I was a chaos coach or something, but my main team really is wood elves.
Sure that means people will foul more. This is blood bowl, not shiny-happy-people bowl. Fouling is part of the flavor of the game, we've taken that away more than enough. I know this may come as a shock to some people here, but your team's best player should actually die now and then
Incidentally, the way I talk you'd think I was a chaos coach or something, but my main team really is wood elves.
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Chinese Relativity Axiom: No matter how great your achievements, or how miserable your failures, there will always be about 1 Billion people in China who won't give a damn.
Chinese Relativity Axiom: No matter how great your achievements, or how miserable your failures, there will always be about 1 Billion people in China who won't give a damn.
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Pink Horror
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wesleytj
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So how is it you get skills for your Black orcs then? Especially now that it takes 16spp for them to get their 2nd skill, it seems like that would take forever. I haven't played orcs in the new edition yet, but I have played them very successfully several times in the past. But I did so by fouling now and then with my BOB's so they could get to Blk/MB. After that they could make due on their own with normal blocking until they got guard or SF (or DT with the lucky ones--I used to have really tight defenses) 
So how you gonna get to 16 with your BOB without fouling? Just wait 30 games? Same goes for a lot of other player types. Skeletons, Zombies, Saurus, Longbeards, etc. It ain't gonna be completions, it ain't gonna be td's, it ain't gonna be ints. All that leaves is cas and mvp...and mvps are random, and cas don't come easy with a guy without skills...
So how you gonna get to 16 with your BOB without fouling? Just wait 30 games? Same goes for a lot of other player types. Skeletons, Zombies, Saurus, Longbeards, etc. It ain't gonna be completions, it ain't gonna be td's, it ain't gonna be ints. All that leaves is cas and mvp...and mvps are random, and cas don't come easy with a guy without skills...
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Chinese Relativity Axiom: No matter how great your achievements, or how miserable your failures, there will always be about 1 Billion people in China who won't give a damn.
Chinese Relativity Axiom: No matter how great your achievements, or how miserable your failures, there will always be about 1 Billion people in China who won't give a damn.
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High & Mighty
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Why not? I started an orc team for our new season and after six games, the 3 BOs who have been around all six games have 17, 12, and 3 SPPs (one was killed in the first game with 1) with 3 TDs, 2 Comps, 1 Ints, 2 MVPs, and 5 Cas. When God made rerolls, he made them so you could handoff to a BO next to the endzone.So how you gonna get to 16 with your BOB without fouling? Just wait 30 games? It ain't gonna be completions, it ain't gonna be td's, it ain't gonna be ints. All that leaves is cas and mvp...and mvps are random, and cas don't come easy with a guy without skills...
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wesleytj
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wow you obviously roll better dice than me.
My rerolls are for double skull blocks and 1's on gfi's, or anything my elves try to do on 2+
My rerolls are for double skull blocks and 1's on gfi's, or anything my elves try to do on 2+
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Chinese Relativity Axiom: No matter how great your achievements, or how miserable your failures, there will always be about 1 Billion people in China who won't give a damn.
Chinese Relativity Axiom: No matter how great your achievements, or how miserable your failures, there will always be about 1 Billion people in China who won't give a damn.
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Pink Horror
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If you take enough blocks the casualties will come. That's always been my experience, skills or no skills.
If you keep your team small, and start with all four black orcs, you shouldn't have to wait 30 games. Maybe 15 would get at least one skill on each and two skills on at least one of them. Meanwhile your blitzers should be getting plenty of TDs, your ogre will have plenty of casualties, and, eh, your throwers and goblins might as well be dead, 'cause who needs them?
Pink Horror
If you keep your team small, and start with all four black orcs, you shouldn't have to wait 30 games. Maybe 15 would get at least one skill on each and two skills on at least one of them. Meanwhile your blitzers should be getting plenty of TDs, your ogre will have plenty of casualties, and, eh, your throwers and goblins might as well be dead, 'cause who needs them?
Pink Horror
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Acerak
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I'm still having problems with the whole idea that a player can become better by fouling. Earning SPPs for a foul is like earning SPPs for an inaccurate pass to me.
Max - Can you expand on this? Maybe you could explain it in a way that says why, in fact, the player shouldn't earn SPPs for fouling.
Here's what I see: a player fouls with the intention of getting the opposing player out of the game. If he succeeds, he gets rewarded. This is not at all like an inaccurate pass, which involves the player failing to do what he tried to do.
Mind you, I'd never suggest earning SPPs for fouls under the current rules. It's just too easy to smash a player with DP, IGMEOY or no IGMEOY, and adding SPPs back to the mix would lead to a lot of folks not giving a damn about the game and focusing instead on fouls. But we're not talking about those rules, we're talking tamer fouling rules and a much tamer DP. So I hear what you're saying, as you've said it a few times, but I don't quite understand it (though I'd like to try).
-Chet
ObDice: I'm with TJ. My re-rolls are for double-skull blocks and failed GFIs
Max - Can you expand on this? Maybe you could explain it in a way that says why, in fact, the player shouldn't earn SPPs for fouling.
Here's what I see: a player fouls with the intention of getting the opposing player out of the game. If he succeeds, he gets rewarded. This is not at all like an inaccurate pass, which involves the player failing to do what he tried to do.
Mind you, I'd never suggest earning SPPs for fouls under the current rules. It's just too easy to smash a player with DP, IGMEOY or no IGMEOY, and adding SPPs back to the mix would lead to a lot of folks not giving a damn about the game and focusing instead on fouls. But we're not talking about those rules, we're talking tamer fouling rules and a much tamer DP. So I hear what you're saying, as you've said it a few times, but I don't quite understand it (though I'd like to try).
-Chet
ObDice: I'm with TJ. My re-rolls are for double-skull blocks and failed GFIs
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