BB Mag #6

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:15 pm

Actually with the most recent team suggested, u could not do that. Ogres are available to freeboot, not Ogre Blockers or Blitzers, just keep the terms and enforce them.

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:18 pm

Darkson -- Yes, they did allow the Ogre team to have human and goblin allies. But I, like you, think that humans would make this team a little too good.

I'd be inclined to give them the Big Guy trait, but if we do that, I think they definitely need access to general skills so they can pick up Leader and Pro to ease the effect of the negative skills as the team develops.

Milo

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:27 pm

sean newboy wrote:Actually with the most recent team suggested, u could not do that. Ogres are available to freeboot, not Ogre Blockers or Blitzers, just keep the terms and enforce them.

I tend to think that the Ogres every other team freeboots would be the best of the best -- that's why the standard Ogre freebooted player is the same statline as the Ogre Blitzer. There just aren't enough of those slightly more intelligent Ogres to go around. I'd think that they should have the Big Guy characteristic and be unable to use re-rolls. However, since only four players will have the use of re-rolls, I'd be inclined to give them re-rolls at the same price as a Goblin team. After all, the goblins will be the only ones using them, and they're cunning enough to work well together.

Milo

Post by **Thadrin** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 5:52 pm

<flame>I love that the BBRC are willing to listen to the voice of the true fanatics...we thrash out a team over 13 pages or so of debate and get basicly told to forget it because Jervis doesn't like it, when the rules that have come from fanatic I could have knocked out in my lunch break without even thinking about them (wonder why...

)
</flame>

Seriously though: I could care less about beefy. You ever see those tiny little Weightlifting women? how beefy do they look? less beefy than some guys I know, but they sure as hell are stronger. Just looking strong doesn't make you strong. Strength is equally about how you USE your muscle power. That's why I'm crap with free weights, and my Bench mark is so utterly humiliatingly pathetic.
I regarded the ST4 on the ogre linemen as representing the fact that they were simply too malcoordinated to effectively use their strength. It handily also made the team affordable to start.

I actually think Milo's list is OK. That said, I agree with Pariah - ST only on the linemen. ST5 plus Block all round? thats a recipe for huge overpowering. I agree there aren't enough ST skills - but these guys are going to progress wayyyyyyy slower than the average Longbeard so that really isn't much of a problem. How long is it going to take for these guys to even get to their second skill.

This list would get my OK:
0-12 Blockers 4/5/1/9 Thick Skull, Bonehead, Big Guy. (St) 90k
0-4 Blitzers 5/5/2/9 Thick Skull, Mighty Blow, Big Guy. (Ge,St) 120k
0-4 Goblins 6/2/3/7 Dodge, Stunty. (Ag) 40k
rerolls (may be used by whole team, but not on Bonehead rolls) 90k

Could give a start of:
1 Blitzer 120
7 Blockers 630
3 Goblins 120
1 reroll 90
4 fan factor 40

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 7:22 pm

Thadrin wrote:
This list would get my OK:
0-12 Blockers 4/5/1/9 Thick Skull, Bonehead, Big Guy. (St) 90k
0-4 Blitzers 5/5/2/9 Thick Skull, Mighty Blow, Big Guy. (Ge,St) 120k
0-4 Goblins 6/2/3/7 Dodge, Stunty. (Ag) 40k
rerolls (may be used by whole team, but not on Bonehead rolls) 90k

So you think the team is more balanced if we remove General skill access from the Blockers, but give the Blitzers no negative skill and the Blockers only get bonehead?

Milo

Post by **Thadrin** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 8:32 pm

Sorry, Blitzers should also have Bonehead. Thats a miss by me.

I really think the lack of availability of Block to the blockers would go a long way to making them as hopeless as they should be. These guys should be the anti-gobboes.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 9:18 pm

Really stupid is an excellent idea to have for the blockers. The blockers ought to lose TTM also so that they couldn't just suddenly throw their "Ogre herders" around.

I also support the idea of no gen-skill access for the blockers. Gen-skill access simply opens up too many obvious choices - block and pro mainly. If we want to go to the extra rules direction, we could always degree that ogre blockers can take ST traits on a normal roll too.

This could be compensated by giving the blockers either +1MA or +1AG.

Code: Select all

0-12  Ogre Blocker    4  5  1  9  Really Stupid, Mighty Blow   90k st
0-4   Ogre Blitzer    5  5  2  9  Bonehead, Mighty Blow, TTM  120k gen,st
0-4   Goblin Catcher  5  2  3  7  Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff   40k, agility

Rerolls:
Either 60k and only goblins can use them
or 90k and also the ogres can use them.

I'd rather let everyone use them. After all when playing in other teams the ogres are in an alien environment (likely that they can't even speak the same dialect that the coach is using), but in an ogre team they are amongst equals and can more easily train together.

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 10:29 pm

The one thing I was sure of after playtesting the other ogre team was that they needed reroll access. The goblins were just too easy to remove and the AG1 & 2 was just a pain in the arse to deal with! I have yet to win a game with the ogres. That's 0-5! Rerolls aren't going to super charge them! The only problem is that they should be allowed to reroll bonehead or really stupid.

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 11:09 pm

Just sent this to Andy @ Fanatic:

Andy,

Not sure if you've seen some of the feedback on the team in BB Mag 6 on Talk BloodBowl. In a nutshell, everyone believes the team is way overpowered. Having a team of 8 Ogres with 8 Gobbos is just way too strong.

When BB Mags 1 and 2 came out, the Ogre team presented had a roster of 0 - 12 Ogres with a max of 8 on the pitch at any one time. This team was bad... as it should be according to the fluff, for a number of reasons:-

You must have a minimum of 8 Ogres on your starting roster. This costs 960k meaning that the remaining cash is spent on Fan Factor. This means no rerolls and no apothecary.

Having only 8 players on the pitch means less Tackle Zones and also means that the opponent has free players to move around unhindered.

AG 2 on all Ogre players means that 3 Ogres are normally required to go for the ball (the other 2 are there to protect the ball should the pick up fail) - meaning only 5 are hitting.

There are no stunties to throw around or fill in gaps.

However, a good coach can also make this Ogre team tough to play against. 8 ST 5 players with Mighty Blow is a fearsome prospect.

So now lets look at the new roster. It seems to me that the figures are designed before the rules are published. Whilst the new figures look great, surely it would be best to publish experimental rules and then make the figures. You have already set a precedent for this - see Ramtut / Necromantic teams where there are no official figures for parts of the team. It seems to me the designer has made all the Ogres to fit a standard ST 5 Ogre. Sure, I'll agree, most Ogres probably are at least ST 5. However, there surely must be some lateral thinking about this. Do Ogres rape and pillage? This could easily lead to there being Human / Ogre crosses or Skaven / Ogre crosses etc? This would allow a bit more variety in team selection and would allow some ST 4 cross breads too.

As Jervis has stated in his emails - balance is all important in games. If one team is too powerful then the game becomes less enjoyable and players will ultimately lose interest. I for one really like the new Ogre figures but I will probably only get 1 or 2 of them since we will not use the team as it stands. If the team was balanced, then I would buy the team. I am sure that there are other coaches who think along the same lines. The team is not balanced since:-

It has 8 Ogres who you can specialise - Offence (Piling On) and Defence (Block) and Ball Handling (Block ,Pro, Pass etc)

They can easily get 2 rerolls when starting. More if you start with 8 Gobbos.

They have ag 3 players who can play the ball, be thrown around, and fill in when Ogres fail Bone Head rolls (eg if you are caging, one of the Ogres may well fail a Bone Head roll - just move a gobbo in to fill the gap).

Gobbos are cheap and can be used as disposable Dirty Players to ensure the opponent's best players do not stand up.

A rookie Ogre team will be tough... an experienced team with lots of Pro and other skills will be very tough....

Please, please, please design teams before designing models. In addition, I strongly believe that new experimental teams should get some external review before being published. Perhaps the BBRC could help here?

Dave

lawquoter · Post by **lawquoter** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 11:52 pm

I'm seriously bummed out by the official "unofficial experimental" rules. I've been wanting an ogre team so long. So I guess I'll get the minis and go with whatever balanced rules are created independently from the mag.

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 12:24 pm

Mestari wrote:

Code: Select all

0-12  Ogre Blocker    4  5  1  9  Really Stupid, Mighty Blow   90k st
0-4   Ogre Blitzer    5  5  2  9  Bonehead, Mighty Blow, TTM  120k gen,st
0-4   Goblin Catcher  5  2  3  7  Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff   40k, agility

This one i like, it gets rid of the general access for the Ogre Blockers, the only think i would add is the big guy trait to all ogres. After all the better ogres play for other teams as big guys, so why should the skills of this team be more beneficial. I'll just reiterate most thoughts, this team isn't expecting to win games.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 1:20 pm

McDeth wrote:I'll just reiterate most thoughts, this team isn't expecting to win games.

Wrong. It's "expecting" to win most games, just not "expected" to by others.

MickeX · Post by **MickeX** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 1:46 pm

Milo wrote:

Code: Select all

0-12  Ogre Blocker    4  5  1  9  Really Stupid, Mighty Blow, TTM   100k
0-4   Ogre Blitzer    5  5  2  9  Bonehead, Mighty Blow, TTM        120k
0-4   Goblin Catcher  5  2  3  7  Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff        40k

I think you're in just the right direction here, Milo. This way, we can get a full Ogre team and still have them underpowered. To me, the part about being underpowered is the most important, both for fluff and for getting a ST5 team that people will actually play against voluntarily...

I want them about equal to the Goblin team.

One thought: if this team comes out of playtesting being completely useless, wouldn't it be better to use other means to strenghten them than to give the Ogres access to re-rolls? I'm thinking that far down the road, when an ogre team has bought say 4 RR, the RS/BH traits might become a lot less of a problem.

Micke

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:05 pm

4 rerolls? lol If they have access to rerolls I would price them at 90K (I'd rather 100K) so 4 rerolls is going cost a lot! Assuming that they picked up one during team creation they would need to spend 540,000 more gold to get up to 4! At 180 a pice I would be surprised to see a team with more than 2 or 3 by the time they reach a 300 TR.

I'd prefer rerolls not work for negative traits at all but I don't think it would be a big deal if they did. If a coach of mostly AG 1 & 2 players wants to use his rerolls on bonehead then I think I'd be okay with that. It's probably going to be his only reroll of the half! Not only that but what then, does he do when he wants to pick up the ball in a TZ and pouring rain with an AG 2 ogre blitzer?

MickeX · Post by **MickeX** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:49 pm

Pariah wrote:If they have access to rerolls I would price them at 90K (I'd rather 100K) so 4 rerolls is going cost a lot!

Well, that is if we manage to convince JJ to increase them from 70k in the first place...

But thinking about it, the main problem is RR for the goblins, not for ogres. It's when those goblins might go wherever they want with small risk that you can get turns where all those RS-traits rolls as BS on the same turn. But restricting RR for gobbos just doesn't seem right.

Micke