What if Cyanide did to BloodBowl what GW did to Warhammer?

[koadah]

If you don't like the Box then don't play it. There is still a whole lot of blood bowl going on out there.

It's the only viable online matchmaking league since Cyanide is flawed and lacks a lot of teams.

The Box still lives and people figure out how to eke some fun out of it. .

Yes, basically the top coaches play only at low TV to avoid clawpomb, while the clawpomb lovers thrive at high TV.
I had to fire some skilled skeletons of my Khemri team to trim the TV, this is ridiculous.

Oh dear Matt. Be careful or Mouse will hang you as a min/maxer.

[Darkson]

Then rather than bitch about Box in a thread about the rules which work for most people, compain to Christer. If enough of you complain maybe he'll relook at his "no houserule" stance, or maybe he won't, but a probem for Box is not necessarily a oroblem for BB.

[Shteve0]

I fully agree with koadah's post. If there's a problem - if! - that only emerges in certain environments, then I'd encourage the commissioners to look at what they can do to change their environment to deliver a solution. Like a 1/100 chance of picking up a niggle for each game after the 50th, for example. Or a player TV increase of 10k after every 50 games played. More or less irrelevant for tabletop, perhaps suitable for perpetual online play.

[harvestmouse]

The problem is that so many coaches do no want house ruling. Particularly those coaches that play in an online and a TT environment. That was made clear when Christer (FUMBBL's owner) suggested house ruling on CPOMB. Personally, I was all for house ruling, however due to the negativity towards it, I think he was probably right in not house ruling. Coaches can then vote with their feet. If Box falls apart, then he can re-look at it.

So this is why I would like the rules to have official or 'recommended' formulas for match making for different formats. Coaches that play in different environments (be that online, TT, different sites, groups, a mix of all) tend not to like house rules.

I understand and support that this site doesn't become a FUMBBL or Cyanide complaints thread, or an area for discussing these site matters. However at times there is relevance. Due to the size of these leagues, problems that arise are potential problems for TT too. Especially, if you get coaches that cross over. It seemed relevant here, and I think it would be a good experience for Milo, but yeah sorry I'll stop on the topic as it was me who brought it up.

[Regash]

The problem is that so many coaches do no want house ruling.

For me, that is not a problem.
For me it says that most people don't want the rules being messed with.

The rules aren't perfect and they will never be perfect.
But the rules are okay and that is all we can hope for.

I think the problem are the players.
Most people take games to serious.
It's all about winning, no matter how, so any loophole in the rules will be milked dry.
Noone ever plays games for the reason they were made for.
Noone plays for just having a good time.

[dode74]

For me it says that most people don't want the rules being messed with.

Interesting. To me it says that people like to play something they know is official.

[koadah]

For me it says that most people don't want the rules being messed with.

Interesting. To me it says that people like to play something they know is official.

Some do. Some are less bothered. Some prefer to stick to lower TV/younger teams no matter what. Those people are less likely to even see 'the issue'.

We'll see how people take Cyanide's changes. Though unfortunately there will probably be other reasons why the public leagues stink.

[spubbbba]

I think the problem are the players.
Most people take games to serious.
It's all about winning, no matter how, so any loophole in the rules will be milked dry.
Noone ever plays games for the reason they were made for.
Noone plays for just having a good time.

This is pretty much the case for Blackbox in FUMBBL. As it is TV based matchmaking you can get away with being a jerk or no fun.

There is much less of an issue in scheduled leagues (online or otherwise) as if you go the killer route then other teams target you. Sooner or later you'll get one of those games where you lose a bunch of good players and the rest of your league opponents will show you the same mercy you did to them.

In open leagues such as ranked you will really struggle to get a game in.

[Milo]

I think that this clearly shows that there is a problem. I don't believe Jervis would have intended to have a ruleset that caused this -- certainly he wouldn't have wanted people abusing the journeyman rules to keep their TV so low. The whole idea of the aging was to provide a counter to Star Players that were so skilled that they wouldn't suffer the attrition of injuries the way an unskilled yob would.

Just as clearly, it shows that it's only a problem under certain circumstances -- resurrection tournaments and shorter term league play won't experience it -- but that doesn't mean it isn't a problem. I think this all falls under the category of unforeseen consequences from previous changes.

For instance, in BB3, the additional SPP necessary to have a five or six skill player inflate your Team Rating dramatically, which is a balancing effect of it's own -- you would wind up giving additional cards to your opponents which could balance out the effect of the additional skills. Costing players by the number/type of skills they have does reflect a truer value but the older system inherently handicapped teams by overcosting very talented players.

I don't know what the solution is offhand. Perhaps changes to the Journeyman rule, perhaps changes to PiOn, maybe reverting Chaos teams back to requiring doubles for mutation access. I'd be happy to discuss it, but again the problem really is that no one has the clear mandate to update/change the rules, so anything decided will remain unofficial and will likely not be accepted globally.

[harvestmouse]

I'd change the rules to JM right away. I would add the following:

You may not hire JM if you have more money than your most expensive item (be that a rr or a player).
JM do not add to the TV when working out match winnings, however they do add to the TV when working out inducements.

I had a look at SWL's premier division earlier. This is the Australasia area league. Currently the division contains the following teams:

Khemri 14 rostered players 950k in the bank
Lizardmen 11 rostered players 1,290k in the bank
Necro 14 rostered players 630k in the bank
CD 12 rostered players 1,090k in the bank
Nurgle 13 rostered players 530k in the bank
Orc 13 rostered players 280k in the bank
Skaven 12 rostered players 510k in the bank
Lizardmen 10 rostered players 460k in the bank

It's a bit bash heavy, but the money in the bank compared to the players on the team is not right. Possibly another rule that you may swap in star players/mercenaries for rostered players before working out inducements, could help.

Apparently though, the BBRC do not have a problem with JM being used to save cash instead of buying players. For me it says that the progressive game simply did not have the testing nor the means to test to such a degree. I guess it's a pity really that the BBRC was disbanded before proper feedback could have been given.

[dode74]

What exactly is the problem with Journeymen as they stand? They count towards TV for both inducements and winnings calculations, they limit you to 11 players, and they are worse on the pitch than linemen due to loner. Invariably journeymen are a worse choice than standard linemen for the next match. I'd genuinely like to know what exactly is being abused and how.

If you want to limit cash held then there seems to be a ready-made rule for that: the Bank.

[koadah]

You don't abuse journeymen to keep your TV low. You use them to save money. i.e. avoid wasting it one line fodder with a short life expectancy.

You keep your TV low to:
a) Avoid the big CPOMBers.
b) Hug the sweet spot and overpower opponents who are not so efficient at that TV.
c) Avoid spiralling expenses.

People like their star players. They just don't like it when their opponent's stars are CPOMB or blodge/AG5/leap/tackle/wrestle.

The old system was horrible IMO. People used to retire star players rather than pay the TR price. Games were 'ruined' (IMO) due to stupid hand offs.

The CPOMBers do take their beating in the Box. Probably more so than they would in a smaller league. The issue in the Box is that teams can quickly play a lot of games to build themselves up. The Babes have over a thousand games. The WMDs will have three thousand before long.

Apparently though, the BBRC do not have a problem with JM being used to save cash instead of buying players.

Quite right! It is a tactic that helps keep your teams and leagues alive longer and avoids the resets that some leagues do. Even if you nerf the CPOMB the Box will still be damn hard league. Orcs and dwarves will fill some of the spots currently occupied by chaos/Nurgle/CDs. Anyone else with strength access will still be dishing it out

For me it says that the progressive game simply did not have the testing nor the means to test to such a degree. I guess it's a pity really that the BBRC was disbanded before proper feedback could have been given.

I agree with that. But part of the issue is that Box/MM are not 'proper' leagues. A lot of people just play to play. There is nothing to 'win'. There is nothing to be gained by going in against the big bashers. In a league or tournament you are going for glory, promotion, avoiding relegation or something. Dealing with long running regular leagues is one thing. Dealing with Box/MM and their specialist strategies is a requirement that was probably out of scope.

You may not hire JM if you have more money than your most expensive item (be that a rr or a player).

I'd hate that. I'm all for options but let people play.

[harvestmouse]

The spirit of the Journey Man is being abused. You would not put out an inferior team, when you had the money to make your team better. Ok, I can see situations where it would be fine in a 'dead' League. Where you can't really improve or make your position worse. I could also see a fluff reason if your next team was against an uber killy team and you couldn't garner interest until that match was out the way.

For me, it is clear that the intent of the Journey Man is to help out bashed up teams, not used in a way to negate Spiralling Expenses or/and to improve you position once you hit Spiralling Expenses. It's just wrong and gamey, and it's all because of TV match making and a smaller extent SE.

Simple with League, handicap on divisional position. This would be more accurate than TV, which comes down to how well you can game the system. And yes, I know the answer 'There's nothing in the rules that suggests you can't do this, so house rule it'.

[koadah]

For me, it is clear that the intent of the Journey Man is to help out bashed up teams, not used in a way to negate Spiralling Expenses or/and to improve you position once you hit Spiralling Expenses. It's just wrong and gamey, and it's all because of TV match making and a smaller extent SE.

No, it is not "all because of TV match making and a smaller extent SE". I do it and have no problem with people doing it in my leagues. It helps keep teams and so the league alive. That is my main goal. To keep people playing.

Simple with League, handicap on divisional position. This would be more accurate than TV, which comes down to how well you can game the system. And yes, I know the answer 'There's nothing in the rules that suggests you can't do this, so house rule it'.

It is not something that I would do. But you know that.

[dode74]

The spirit of the Journey Man is being abused.

Says who? What "spirit" are you working to which these other people who are, in your opinion, abusing it, are not working to?

I have no idea how you think JM have an effect on SE. SE is calculated before any JM are removed from the roster (or hired), so they count towards SE calculations. SE is step 3, JM firing/hiring is step 6, JM for the next match is step 7.

I have little good to say about TV-based MM, but I don't even think that can be blamed here. Personally I think you're working to some unseen layer of the rules - the spirit, as you call it - which other people aren't. It's not reasonable to ask people to adhere to unwritten rules.