Orc teams too powerful?

[roysorlie]

You guys are going to give Pariah a headache.. hehe. But maybe he could use one.

The main thing about the orc team that's too powerful, is the 15 positional players. Most teams only sport 8 or 9.

But orcs are a bargain. Cheap, good and diverse players, with lots of strength and stunty guys. And a big guy.

I still beat em though.

[wesleytj]

A good coach will win with almost any team.

Of course i agree with that. I've always said that i do. This means that the game is somewhat balanced, but it doesn't mean that it's very balanced.

Orcs are way better than any other team. They're by far the most played. They're good at everything (it's not even true that you're slow when you've got MA6 with dodge and stunty). And it's not normal for a team to have 15 positional players. Take away the goblins and i'm happy.

OK they ARE still slow. They have 4 guys with MA6. That does not make them un-slow. The Bob's are MA4, the line orcs and throwers MA5. That makes them a slower than average team. Not as slow as undead or dwarves, but slow. Slower than lizards, all the human types, all the elf types, and even chaos.

Also they are not good at everything. I would certainly not call them any more than an average passing team, and even when they get a good thrower, they have trouble finding anyone who can reliably catch (sure, goblins you say, but most people don't have them and they're very easy targets).

Orcs have weaknesses that a good coach can capitalize on.

[roysorlie]

Orcs have weaknesses that a good coach can capitalize on.

Every team has a weakness that a good coach can capitalize on.

The problem with orc's are that they have very few of them, compared to other teams. And with 4 gobbos, and 4 blitzers they have 8 MA6.

You really don't need MA 6 on BO.

[wesleytj]

Orcs have weaknesses that a good coach can capitalize on.

Every team has a weakness that a good coach can capitalize on.

The problem with orc's are that they have very few of them, compared to other teams. And with 4 gobbos, and 4 blitzers they have 8 MA6.

You really don't need MA 6 on BO.

If you have 4 gobbos you're FREAKING INSANE! Sure great, you have 8 guys with ma6. You're also a "hitting team" with 4 guys with st2, av7, and +1 to inj on the field. Not exactly the way to go. I pray for the day when I get to play against an orc team with 4 gobbos on the field. One or two might be a good thing for a team. Any more than that is dumb.

And you're right, black orcs are fine with ma4, speed ain't their thing. But my point is that the team is slow overall.

Yes orcs are good overall. I'm not saying they aren't. But they'll be outhit by a good dwarf team, outpassed and outun by a good elf, rat, or human team, out"lived" by an undead team, and so on. Everybody has a way to beat em. They do LOTS of things pretty well, but only a few things VERY well.

[Ghost of Pariah]

Yep! I have never seen an orc team field 4 goblins and have 11 players on the pitch at the end of the half. It's just a bad idea. The goblin route is a legit strategy and can do alot of good but the nonsense that 4 goblins makes them too strong is just that...nonsense. Personally I'd rather pass to a blitzer than a goblin or try a Throw Team Mate.

[Zombie]

It's possible to have 4 gobbos on your roster, but almost every coach picks up the blitzers, 2-4 BO's, 2 throwers, and a big guy. I have never seen an Orc team field 4 goblins at once. It is much more likely that Orcs will be at a movement disadvantage than any other team that I can think of besides the two I mentioned above.

Hey, it ain't my fault if they can't use the team to its full potential!

[wesleytj]

It's possible to have 4 gobbos on your roster, but almost every coach picks up the blitzers, 2-4 BO's, 2 throwers, and a big guy. I have never seen an Orc team field 4 goblins at once. It is much more likely that Orcs will be at a movement disadvantage than any other team that I can think of besides the two I mentioned above.

Hey, it ain't my fault if they can't use the team to its full potential!

Whatever Zombie, having 4 gobbos on an orc team isn't done too often for a reason. IT'S DUMB. 1 or 2 max.

[Zombie]

If you have 4 gobbos you're FREAKING INSANE! Sure great, you have 8 guys with ma6. You're also a "hitting team" with 4 guys with st2, av7, and +1 to inj on the field. Not exactly the way to go. I pray for the day when I get to play against an orc team with 4 gobbos on the field. One or two might be a good thing for a team. Any more than that is dumb.

So what? Lizardmen have to field at least 4 every drive, and they're still a good team! I always field 4 gobbos on offense (of course not on defense) and trust me, they're very hard to stop.

But they'll be outhit by a good dwarf team, outpassed and outun by a good elf, rat, or human team, out"lived" by an undead team, and so on.

My orc team with 4 gobbos passes and runs just as well as a human team. That's one of the reasons i believe they're too good. They do everything humans do just as well as humans do, but bash way better.

[Zombie]

Yep! I have never seen an orc team field 4 goblins and have 11 players on the pitch at the end of the half.

With 4 goblins on the field, you're not supposed to take 8 turns to score. It should take 2 turns, or 3 max if something goes wrong (just like elves). On defense of course, you leave them on the bench.

[Ghost of Pariah]

Stopping the score is easy. Especially when you splatter the little goblins all over the pitch. 4 goblins on the pitch means very little protection for the little guys. Any coach worth a dime can smack that formation around.

[Zombie]

You can only blitz one on the first turn. On your next turn after that, it will be too late because they'll have already scored and will be sitting safely in the dugout while the rest of the team plays defense. This even gives the gobbo you knocked out some time to get out of the KO box.

[Ghost of Pariah]

We've had this discussion before. So you can only blitz one?

You still either need t run or pass. If you run it's easy to see who to blitz and then swarm the other ones. If you pass it simple enough to cover them all. Stunty does nothing for catching.

In the end it's been proven elsewhere in this thread that there aren't any leagues where orcs are dominating. If they aren't winning more consistently than any other team then there is no balance issue.

This is why paper and reality aren't the same thing and play testing is what rules the balance and not mathmatics.

[Zombie]

I've played this kind of orc team many times (in fact i never play them differently), so i know what i'm talking about and i'm not just pulling numbers from my hat.

Frankly, if orcs don't dominate in other leagues, it's because they haven't learned to use their goblins to their full potential.

Tell me, how exactly is it easy to cover all 4? On the first turn when i receive, i easily nail down 3 or 4 of your guys on the floor, as should be expected from black orcs and/or orc blitzers. Then i send 4 gobbos in your backfield. You only need one player to blitz a gobbo and send him flying. However, you'll need at least 2 players on each other gobbo to cover them. If you put any less, it's too easy to just blitz the one guy off the gobbo and score. This means 7 guys minimum just to take care of the gobbos. With your 3 or 4 guys down, and assuming at least 1 or 2 were stunned or more, that doesn't leave much to cover the rest of my team, does it?

[Thadrin]

Tell me, how exactly is it easy to cover all 4? On the first turn when i receive, i easily nail down 3 or 4 of your guys on the floor, as should be expected from black orcs and/or orc blitzers. Then i send 4 gobbos in your backfield. You only need one player to blitz a gobbo and send him flying. However, you'll need at least 2 players on each other gobbo to cover them. If you put any less, it's too easy to just blitz the one guy off the gobbo and score. This means 7 guys minimum just to take care of the gobbos. With your 3 or 4 guys down, and assuming at least 1 or 2 were stunned or more, that doesn't leave much to cover the rest of my team, does it?

Thats assuming ALL your two dice blocks - and there are most likely 4 on your first turn at best - come off. Unlikely.
Thats assuming you can get all your goblins through - there's only so far Stunty and Dodge take you, especially against Tackled up Dwarfs, and don't claim you can pull the Wood elf trick of one small hole and half the team dodges through. Goblins are NOT Wood Elf catchers.
I think its more a case of the poeple you play just not knowing how to stop the 4 gobbo attack.

[Zombie]

Thats assuming ALL your two dice blocks - and there are most likely 4 on your first turn at best - come off. Unlikely.

Why, does all of the opposition have side step? Otherwise, i'm getting a second and maybe a third chance on everyone i didn't bring down on the first block. For my blitz, as soon as i have someone with frenzy, i use him there all the time (gotta love my frenzying bull centaur for creating holes).

Thats assuming you can get all your goblins through - there's only so far Stunty and Dodge take you, especially against Tackled up Dwarfs, and don't claim you can pull the Wood elf trick of one small hole and half the team dodges through. Goblins are NOT Wood Elf catchers..

I get 3 through the hole created by the blitz, and 1 through the other side using stunty. Of course against dwarves, i always say screw the pass and i keep the gobbos on the bench. But this versatility is exactly what makes the orcs so good.

I think its more a case of the poeple you play just not knowing how to stop the 4 gobbo attack.

I'd like for you to try stopping it and tell me what you think of it after you did.