Big Guys and Piling On-Smell the Cheese

[DoubleSkulls]

DT should be left as is.

I disagree - imagine a GR with Shadowing and Diving Tackle. That's just 2 normal skill rolls and impossible to get away from. Give him side step next and you can't even reliably blitz him away. However I would say that my league still plays DT & PO before hand, so I haven't seem too much in the way of actual experience to back it up.

Lets face it the "use after" rule has minimal effect on most skills - MB and DP were played that way anyway and I can't think off too many other skills it makes any difference at all.

[Milo]

IF a gutter runner, ST2, chooses to spend two skill rolls on Shadowing and Diving Tackle, you should thank the great god Nuffle for your good fortune, hand the ball off to another player, and get two other blokes over there to throw the 3 die block and kill him D-E-D dead.

Just my opinion. I don't think Diving Tackle needs modification. Sure, you could make a nasty GR with D.T., Tackle, Shadowing, Side Step, and Prehensile Tail, but that's five skills dedicated to nothing but keeping the other player from getting away from you, whereas they can take Block, Tackle, and Mighty Blow and just beat the snot out of you.

Put another way -- Gutter Runners who intentionally stay in other players tackle zones live a short but brutal life.

Milo

[wesleytj]

I agree with Milo...in fact I don't find DT to be too good, if anything I find it worthless. I never give it to my elves anymore, when they took the old version all the time.

For the same reason that it's worthless on the gutter runner, it's worthless for the elf, and it's this: Who would try to run away from them rather than just hit them. And you're trying to CUT DOWN the number of times your guy gets hit. In fact even more so for the GR who is st2.

I'm still in favor of bringing back the old dt as an agility trait. That would be better, and would eliminate the abuses it had in 3rd ed (namely big ST guys with it, and elf teams where 10 guys had it)...plus it would make elves think a little about what to do with doubles, instead of taking guard every time.

[BoB]

I find the gutter runner outlined to be far inferior to a wardancer with only two skill rolls:
8,3,4,7 Block Dodge Leap Diving Tackle, Tackle
and the option on sidestep as his third.
In fact my current wardancer has:
8,3,4,7 Block, Dodge, Leap, Piling On, Diving tackle, Tackle, Shadowing.
My only regret is you cant combine diving tackle and piling on.

[DoubleSkulls]

What I would say is that Marcus, who is an excellent Skaven coach said either make DT pre dodge roll or all my GR's are going down the shadowing/DT path. We all looked at the rules and potential for the combo and thought it far too powerful.

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
I agree with Skummy - piling on would be perfect if it was half ST rounding up.

With the new rules, where you cannot reroll armor and injury rolls, piling on (+ mighty blow) is necessary if you want to have anything like a reasonably stable takeout game.
I think that making Piling On a trait would be a big mistake.

We are still using Piling On before the armor roll in my league.
But I've got to agree with the BBRC: This doesn't quite work with ST3 players.
Quite often an ST3 player with piling on (before the roll) will and up in a worse position than the opponent that he just knocked down.
IMO, piling on after the roll would be a lot more worthwhile for these players - even if the bonus was was reduced to +2.
Thats why I'd love for piling on to be/stay useable after the roll.

But "after" the roll with bonuses like +4 and +5 on the strong players is simply way too good.
Cutting them down to the +2/+3 would be a lot more reasonable.
And it would still be a very good skill.

Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi WesleyTJ

[rephrase]: DP is too good, because it can take care of every kind of opponent, and only eats up 1 skill slot.
>Nah, new igmeoy means you really have to pick and choose when/where you use your dp's so it's not overpowered.

Well, as long as you "pick & choose" something more important than your 1-skill-lineman you've made a good deal.

>Now if your opponent has 2 dps just let him foul you and get kicked out. So it's not a big deal at all.

You sound like you haven't played against an opponent that uses his DPs correctly.

>>I regularly play gainst an orc team.
>>All his BOBs and blitzers (and the troll) are hard hitters.
>>His linemen? 4 dirty players.

>A: that's dumb (see above)

Is it?
Consider first that your reply ("don't foul") has virtually prevented me from dealing with his piling on players.
Secondly, notice that with 4 DPs, the fact that the first foul in each half is only caught on a 6, and the fact that you may be fortunate enough to a call - those 4 DPs should net you 9 fouls!

1 Response would ofcourse be to try to eliminate his dirty players.
that a) shows just how good that 1 skill is, b) draw attention away from his "good" players.

Anyway, with 9 fouls between them, those 4 dirty players should be able to do serious damage - especially considering that if you foul a victim that was knocked down with an assist and then followed up, you have a good chance of getting that juicy +2 injury roll.

With a minimum of effort, you should be able to foul/remove players that are worth more than your DPs.
And remember, every 3rd casualty has a permanent effect.

>B: why does he still field 4 line orcs? 4bobs, 4blitzers, 2throwers, 1 ogre(or troll in that case). If you don't like fielding
>throwers all the time, that could either be goblins, or at most, 2 line orcs on the field.

2 line orcs will do fine - thats 2 for each half, considering that they'll be sent off at some point.

So, I stand by my original statement.
Dirty player is just a little bit too good in its's current incarnation.

Martin

[wesleytj]

Hi all,
I agree with Skummy - piling on would be perfect if it was half ST rounding up.

But "after" the roll with bonuses like +4 and +5 on the strong players is simply way too good.
Cutting them down to the +2/+3 would be a lot more reasonable.
And it would still be a very good skill.

Martin

But then the ONLY people who would ever take piling on would be big guys. Nobody else would waste a ST skill for +1 or 2. That's not really what you're going for is it?

[wesleytj]

Hi WesleyTJ

[rephrase]: DP is too good, because it can take care of every kind of opponent, and only eats up 1 skill slot.
>Nah, new igmeoy means you really have to pick and choose when/where you use your dp's so it's not overpowered.

Well, as long as you "pick & choose" something more important than your 1-skill-lineman you've made a good deal.

Maybe. It depends on if you're sucessful and how sucessful you are. And you're not considering what we call "opportunity cost" If that guy had taken a different skill, he may have been able to be a lot more useful than just KO'ing one guy or whatever.

>Now if your opponent has 2 dps just let him foul you and get kicked out. So it's not a big deal at all.

You sound like you haven't played against an opponent that uses his DPs correctly.

I think you're missing what I'm saying. I know they can hurt. It sucks to have to play a game without your best player or two. I've had 9 guys DIE in one game to dirty players in previous editions, so yes I know how it's used. What I'm saying is that the 2nd dp (assuming no retaliations) is always going to have the ref watching him because of the first one. There are much better uses of a skill slot than having a shot at getting kicked out half the time for the chance to cause a +2inj. The average result of that is a KO...so you're trading a KO (50% to come back each drive) for 50% ejection for the whole game. Not a good tradeoff, unless you are picky about who you foul (as I said above)

>>I regularly play gainst an orc team.
>>All his BOBs and blitzers (and the troll) are hard hitters.
>>His linemen? 4 dirty players.

>A: that's dumb (see above)

yes (see above). The last several guys will not be able to foul without having the ref watching them. The only time it's neat to have 4 dp's in igmeoy bb is when you "get the ref". Not often enough to spend 3 extra skill slots on.

Secondly, notice that with 4 DPs, the fact that the first foul in each half is only caught on a 6, and the fact that you may be fortunate enough to a call - those 4 DPs should net you 9 fouls!

I guess but then you've lost 4 players for MAYBE 4 or 5 cas max. The orcs would be better off just pounding you the old fashioned way. Maybe if all those DPs had block...

>With a minimum of effort, you should be able to foul/remove players that >are worth more than your DPs.
>And remember, every 3rd casualty has a permanent effect.

Yeah you're right...people could even DIE!! Oh mercy! I'm not going to di the math here exactly, but I think with 9 fouls (even if you ALWAYS get the +2 to inj) it's only going to be about 1 death a game. Who knew people could die in BLOOD BOWL?!?!

It's still not a strategy that will win games by itself like in was in vanilla 3rd ed.




>B: why does he still field 4 line orcs? 4bobs, 4blitzers, 2throwers, 1 ogre(or troll in that case). If you don't like fielding
>throwers all the time, that could either be goblins, or at most, 2 line orcs on the field.

>2 line orcs will do fine - thats 2 for each half, considering that they'll be >sent off at some point.

>So, I stand by my original statement.
>Dirty player is just a little bit too good in its's current incarnation.

>Martin

When will it not be? The skill has already been completely destroyed compared to what it used to be. And I'm not saying it didn't need that some, but I think at some point enough's enough and you have to take a little bit of fouling. It is part of the game after all.

[wesleytj]

oops i goofed that reply all up...it had the little >'s in it and I got into Listserv mode or something...I think you can still figure out what I said and what I didn't tho.

[DoubleSkulls]

Anyway, with 9 fouls between them, those 4 dirty players should be able to do serious damage - especially considering that if you foul a victim that was knocked down with an assist and then followed up, you have a good chance of getting that juicy +2 injury roll.

It is marginally worthwhile fouling with DP's when the eye is on you. You've got a 50% chance of getting sent off. Your chances of getting your opponent off the pitch are about the same - but most of the time this will be a KO so they are able to return to the game.

By fouling you basically are running an even trade - but you may turnover and you are probably out of position because you've just put 3/4 players around the victim. Also you are ignoring the fact your DP could have done something else instead (e.g. give an assist, mark a receiver).

So against your opponents key players fouling my be worthwhile, but in my experience the occassional DP foul is far more useful in the game than a strategic policy of fouling every turn.

[wesleytj]

as it should be.

[Skummy]

A +2 chance to get through the armor after the roll is still very good. I would take it and turn an Orcish Blitzer into an armor penetrator, for example. Combined with Mighty Blow for injury, it is pretty powerful.

[Sushé Wakka]

I thougth the only skill useable in a foul was Dirty Player, so no bonuses for Mighty Blow, etc (which are only useable in a block).

[BoB]

Yes, DP is the only one usable on foul, if it wasnt then bugger mighty blow, i would be playing skaven and working towards razor sharp fangs with DP.
Fouling is fine, you need some and as has been stated it costs the fouling player almost as much in players on the pitch if they keep fouling.
You could experiment with DP adding +2 to the foul off role though, that might settle ppl down.
Then it becomes a 2+ with IGMEOY to foul off a DP.
Any thoughts?