A Call for Calm

[GreedySmurf]

and I'm about to trade my girlfriend for a wife.

Your girlfriend must be pretty pissed off! Poor Girl.








I'll show myself to the door

Come on, someone had to say it.

[Heff]

and I'm about to trade my girlfriend for a wife.

Your girlfriend must be pretty pissed off! Poor Girl.








I'll show myself to the door

Come on, someone had to say it.

Oddly enough l traded,a wife for a girlfriend, and she was not happy no.

[Indigo]

The stuff you replied with

The problem isn't criticism of the NAF. The NAF should be open to it, and in some cases deserves, criticism. The problem is, and always has been, that both "sides" can occasionally get heated and it gets a little out of hand. No one is implying the "NAF defenders" haven't overstepped the line in the same as the "NAF dissenters" have too. The difference is those that go too far in defending the NAF either apologise or don't do it again - they certainly don't make a habit of it. I can count the number of people on one hand who went a bit far in the last election.

The problem the other way is that those dissenting against the NAF frequently resort to personal attacks which are NOT closed down. So they do it again, and again. That is unfair and non-constructive and what every single objection on TFF has been aimed at. It's not shutting down NAF criticism. And though you personally may have reconciled the view that there is no clique, in the anti-NAF squad that view is arguably still wildly held. So though I directly responded to you earlier if that's what you believe then good - but others need to hear it and in the context of your post.

Anyway. Moving on.

Reading the ausbowl forum, it sounds like most of the aussies arguments seem to be focused around "we don't do many tournies and therefore NAF value is limited for us". With a few exceptions - that Woolfe chap in particular seems to be more preoccupied with simply picking apart any post from someone who isn't an ausbowl regular than entering into meaningful discourse - you guys have identified a regional community need and have the energy/time to deliver it. Problem is, by saying "oh the NAF doesn't do this, we'll do our own" is a) daft and b) selfish. Don't overreact at those words but

a) if you can crack the league question you can pioneer something the NAF (and the rest of the world) can use. If what you do is good and you do it with a business case the NAF picks up, you can do more than ausbowl on it's own could. Why ignore the NAF completely just because regionally you do fewer tournaments?

b) Selfish because some people make the argument "The NAF don't do what I want therefore they are an irrelevance, your NAF community hasn't solved MY particular problem", then in another thread argues that the ausbowl community can fix this problem but only want to do it for Ausbowl.

The NAF isn't a magic wand, it wants to provide league support, library stuff, community hub stuff... but the community itself is NOT forthcoming. The naf isn't the bottomless pit of creativity, places like ausbowl are - if you have the time and energy, the NAF is the place that multiplies that out to make it more than you could. The NAF didn't form saying "sit back chaps, Lycos will write strategy guides for every team and design the best league system you could ever want". It's a way of taking the output of what community minded people do, disseminating it and where it can providing the financial clout to realise things no small league could ever do.

This wider discussion probably needs another thread. I'll start one when I get time. I'd happily join and chat on ausbowl if I didn't think I'd get lynched by people who don't read threads before they get locked but still form the opinion I'm part of a mob of dicks

[Virral]

Sweeping generalisations are rarely helpful Indigo.

Lumping together everyone who has ever disagreed with the NAF as "the anti NAF squad" isn't helpful, how is that any different than people complaining about a pro NAF clique?

Claiming everyone who defends the NAF is fair and reasonable and might have made a one off comment in the heat of the moment while everyone who has criticised the NAF are vindictive repeat offenders isn't helpful. That really, really set my teeth on edge if I'm honest, it's just a repeat of the same "stop being rude you f@#kwit" nonsense I've seen far too much recently.

Claiming you'd be attacked on Ausbowl based on the comments of one person is most definitely not helpful. Although calling everyone daft and selfish probably wouldn't be my recommended approach, even if you do tell people not to overreact

I don't really know why the NAF got dragged into this whole mess to be honest, and I think it's a shame that the guys who stepped up and apologised for it are now trying to turn it into a point scoring exercise. It happened, they said sorry, let's move on.

[sann0638]

This wider discussion probably needs another thread. I'll start one when I get time.

Erm... http://talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopi ... 20&t=38327

[stanrichardson]

Just a few points about league/fumbbl/cyanide records being pulled into the naf. I am against it for alot of reasons, which i'll happily discuss further with anyone.

The point a want to make here is about the technical side if doing. I lead on a project at work to intergrate our box office system with our finance package, and it was a total pain in the ass and cost 20k plus to set up, then theres the mainaince and support costs.

The first issue we would have is needing a common field ie naf name or number. So you would need a master data store that adds names/numbers/details. So theres data protection issues.

2nd how is the data moved from one database to another? No company in the world with any sense is going to give another company access to their servers. So you will need an interim database in a dmz for info to be pushed ti then pulled out. So who pays/maintains this?

If the fumbbl export died for example who is going to pay the ict consulrant to fix it? Who is going to pay the maintaince charges? Who is going to be the database admin? How do get buy in from other companys?

[Indigo]

Sweeping generalisations are rarely helpful Indigo.

Lumping together everyone who has ever disagreed with the NAF as "the anti NAF squad" isn't helpful, how is that any different than people complaining about a pro NAF clique?

I think you're confusing things here, and I'm not entirely sure what "sweeping generalisations" you think I'm making.

There are people who "anti-NAF" - certain mods, people who make personal attacks against NAFfers and who criticise the NAF for the sake of it rather than generalied, impersonal constructive feedback. I'll not name names here, PM me if you wish to discuss further.

There are people who are don't agree with where the NAF is or think they should be doing better - I lump the aussies who according to the ausbowl site and in the words of Shteve0, seem to have crystallised the majority of their opinion in two very similar poll results. That's a generalisation in that not every aussie thinks that way, granted, but it's not sweeping. I think it's pretty fair.

Then there is a pro-NAF clique. Which to be honest is essentially the same people as the anti-NAF squad because they've reached the opinion anyone defending the NAF, especially personal friends of staff, is in the clique. They say this because they can't make logical, consistent arguments so revert to tattletales. So as you say, I don't think the anti-NAFfers or the clique are really separate. Again, a generalisation I feel is justified not sweeping.

Claiming everyone who defends the NAF is fair and reasonable and might have made a one off comment in the heat of the moment while everyone who has criticised the NAF are vindictive repeat offenders isn't helpful. That really, really set my teeth on edge if I'm honest, it's just a repeat of the same "stop being rude you f@#kwit" nonsense I've seen far too much recently.

Sorry I really don't understand this. PM me pls mate. But my point is the pro-NAF who stepped out of line apologised and that whole episode is years ago. The objection was that personal attacks were made against people here against the terms of use of the site, often along "NAF lines" and nothing was done about it. It stifled discourse. That is what we have moved on from in the last few weeks.

Claiming you'd be attacked on Ausbowl based on the comments of one person is most definitely not helpful. Although calling everyone daft and selfish probably wouldn't be my recommended approach, even if you do tell people not to overreact

That's confusion between the actual personal attacks from people calling me/us asshats/arseholes/dicks and looking at the way the majority of the people have embraced the chance to talk on ausbowl since lycos & geggster started and one guy in particular seems to want to just respond to counter arguments with strawman tactics. Although granted, the one chap I'm referring to did call me a dick without having read any of the thread in question which I found funny

TBH I've gone on record for a week now asking to move on from the personal attacks bit and start being constructive, there are probably posts you may have missed?

I'm not sure of another way to state the "we want you to do X, we don't think you CAN do X even though we liked the idea of the NAF, so we are personally going to do X ourselves then abandon the NAF". The NAF lives and breathes based on the contributions from the community - my point was trying to say if the aussies do have a solution then breaking away and doing it on their own IS selfish/self-centred What I'm saying is if they have ideas then rather than break away, shout it from the fcuking rooftops and let's SHARE it

edit: to be totally clear I'd like like to be clear this is light hearted. If you guys come up with a solution don't keep it to yourselves, spread the love I'll not delete the message so the original context can be seen alongside the clarification.

I don't really know why the NAF got dragged into this whole mess to be honest, and I think it's a shame that the guys who stepped up and apologised for it are now trying to turn it into a point scoring exercise. It happened, they said sorry, let's move on.

I'm not sure why or how you think there is any point scoring going on. PM me pls

[Indigo]

This wider discussion probably needs another thread. I'll start one when I get time.

Erm... http://talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopi ... 20&t=38327

I think it's best that we leave that entire episode behind us. Not really anyone's finest hour...

[sann0638]

I don't think that's quite right actually - there are loads of constructive ideas in there if you ignore the rubbish.

[Blammaham]

I don't think that's quite right actually - there are loads of constructive ideas in there if you ignore the rubbish.

Yup, LOTS! S.

[Kikurasis]

No offense, Indigo, but what the aussies are doing is the driver behind innovation.

I'm not on either side here, but historically, what is happening with them and the NAF (from what I've read anyways) is what every business has done -- and either succeeded or failed. For example, where would we be if Microsoft was never formed because the founders said "Ah, forget it -- Unix already runs computers." Or, if Apple said "Windows is good enough on PCs." or "Smartphones are already good enough."

Let them do whatever they want. If it's a success, the NAF and them have options on how to move things forward -- hopefully together, for the benefit of all worldwide Blood Bowl players.

[Nichren]

This wider discussion probably needs another thread. I'll start one when I get time.

Erm... http://talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopi ... 20&t=38327

I think it's best that we leave that entire episode behind us. Not really anyone's finest hour...

So Indigo, the NAF doesn't need to change/innovate? Its perfect the way it is?

[Joemanji]

That is not what he said.

[Nichren]

That is not what he said.

He's implying it to me, by ignoring a perfectly good thread.

[Babs]

Here's my point.

Strangely it seems that TFF has degenerated, and the whole episode was to try to point that out. In my mind the 'prank' escalated the degeneration, such that I COMPLETELY understand Galak's posts on Ausbowl.

Apologies were indeed needed. In fact, if the apologies are really genuine then I'd be keen to see some serious discussion and then work on fixing the issue.

As such, this will be my last post on TFF until further notice, with the exception of the 'Models' sub forum. I say that with the full weight of who I am and who I stand for (BBRC in hiatus, NAF rep etc, member of online Blood Bowl community since 1995).
If you want to contact me, I'll be on the forum that eclipses TFF in almost every regard, Ausbowl (well, of relevance to me, since I'm in Aus/NZ).

I'm sorry, but the 'sour taste in my mouth' is exactly that.
I am certain I am not the only reasonable, sensible Blood Bowler of long standing to make this decision over the last little while, perhaps just the only one who will post publically about it.

I am particularly disappointed with this latest episode due to the standing I placed in Indigo, Purplegoo and Joemanji. I _thought_ they were trustworthy, reliable and sensible people after reading posts from them for years. I was proven wrong on this occasion. I am pleased to see that all three have manned up and apologised.

Good Bye.