Forget Dwarves, what do Norse need for balance

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 2:21 pm

B.B.B wrote:just cause a online league shows them weaker is no reason for a change

I do find it interesting B.B.B. that I used online league data to support your position here against another online league.
Sorry ... couldn't resist.

Actually we had a Norse team miss the championship game in the MBBL by one game win this year.

Wish I could use MBBL2 stats here ... but we modified the Norse roster and the Catcher also has Dauntless as they did when the first 3rd edition rules for the Norse were published.

Dangerous Dave's Norse team in the MBBL2 is 10 wins - 6 losses - 1 tie
29 TDs for - 22 TDs against - 44 CAS for - 39 CAS against. He placed 4th in Seasons 2 AND 3 with that Norse team out of 60+ teams/coaches.

The Norse race in the MBBL2 is 16 wins - 16 losses - 2 ties overall of all teams played in the league. I'll stop now as the Dauntless change is a big shift in how the team does.

The oldest Norse team in the MBBL (the LRB league) has played 11 games with a 6-5 record and a winning season this year as well (last 5 games). So again ... I have to say ... I think the Norse are just fine from my experience with the LRB rules.

Galak

Sputnik · Post by **Sputnik** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 2:39 pm

Wish I could use MBBL2 stats here ...
why did you post them here if you didn't have the intention to compare them (sorry, but I couldn't resist after reading your part below said comment ).

I posted them because based on seeing the MBBL2 results I'm pretty sure that just giving the Catchers Dauntless and upping their cost 20k is all you need to do if you wanted to give the team a minor boost that helps them in the long haul.

The original Catchers were called Huscarl so that's my suggestion ... sorry that was I was trying to say with my comments about the MBBL2 stats.

Galak

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:10 pm

very confusing, who edit who's post here???

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:25 pm

ah shoot ... sorry Sputnik ... I must have hit Edit instead of Quote .... sigh ... now I know I'm tired. Sorry ... was not intentional.

Galak

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:55 pm

Galak is clearly ABUSING his mod rights to confuse other people!!!

(enough smilies? ... well one more to be safe)

Sputnik · Post by **Sputnik** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:23 pm

very confusing, who edit who's post here???

ups!

Yes, i posted here, but you can only see Galaks posting with my nickname!

I feel abused.

It's close to being Griff'ed!

Sputnik (the real and only one)

Sixpack595 · Post by **Sixpack595** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:07 pm

I see alot of W-L records being posted, but what about the direction the teams are going? If they all start 4-0 (like mine did

), but then get railed by any team over say TR170 you may need to look at tweaks. If its spread evenly they are probably fine.

Sputnik · Post by **Sputnik** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:14 pm

Sorry ... was not intentional

Man, holding a blood-dripping knife: "Officer, I didn't do anything. I was standing here, holding the knife, and he ran into the blade!"

Officer: "32 times in a row??"

Sputnik

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:37 pm

I wish I could tell you the number of times I realize that I'm editing someone's post instead of quoting them. When you are tired and hurrying those buttons become very very close together at least to my fingers.

I know you are all joking, but again sorry about that ... of all the folks whose comments I'd like to edit ... Sputnik's isn't one of them.

And Sputnik ... wish I could remember a thread where Nazgit had an idea and the thread was so good I wanted to start a poll so I edited his post added my comments and created a poll ... now that was using and abusing, but I try to avoid doing that on purposes very strongly ...

Galak

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 9:15 pm

Well since the Norse team quoted by Galak is mine, I'll add my 2 cents.

Actually Dauntless on the Catchers is not something I use a lot - I tend to try and keep them away from big ugly brutes. The real difference is the Snow Troll. This is a Troll with 1 less AV but starts with Block (he also can't play in sweltering heat). While my troll doesn't set the world alight, he has dodge and Pro

- this means he takes on the big boys, ties up the oppo and takes the hits away from my av 7 guys. [the Storm Giant is only a decoy!!!]

To take out big guys or other nasties, I use my bezerker:

Block, Jump Up, Frenzy, Dauntless, Mighty Blow and Push. Frenzy and Push means that any player within 3 squares of the side lines is in trouble.

Everyone says the Norse as a starting team is better - well I think my first season was 2-4 in the MBBL2 (or similar). Basically if you suffer injuries early on you have no bench - this is largely how I have lost the other matches too - bench is critical since a rookie lino is still very useful.

Dave

swilhelm73 · Post by **swilhelm73** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 6:55 am

kadu-c wrote:
swilhelm73 wrote:Cheaper Rerolls - if Zons get supercheap RRs, Norse should get them too
Zons don't have access to Big Guys, "supercheap" rerolls are needed to cope with ST4 or more players to reroll Blocks.

Starting with Dodge on every player - a skill norse lineman need a doubles to get - more then makes up for it.

The fact that Zons have a better winning percentage AND a better CAS ratio shows that they are easily the better team mid term and on versus Norse.

swilhelm73 · Post by **swilhelm73** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 7:21 am

Sputnik wrote:
So much for the previous version of PO...anyway, the Norse may have lost a step there (but not as much as other teams, believe me).

[snip]

If you don't change your style of play during your team history, most of your teams will suffer (or think of all the dodge players in an environment more and more tackle heavy, for example). So this is not Norse specific. Yes, I know that there are teams being good early on and others fading out after a while, but my impression on the Norse is that some coaches

The only teams that could claim, really, to have lost as much as Norse with the PO change are Khemri/Undead. However, the MV3 on the mummies versus the JU Blitzers seems to make the choice as to who this hurt more pretty clear to me...

Anyway, I certainly tried making the transition to a more finesse team with my Norse. Doesn't work. At least not for me. You can score with your blodge catchers - but your team will be pummelled by bashy teams and outmanuevered by AG teams.

My Norse team easily had the worst record of any of my FUMBBL teams. The team isn't balanced and frankly isn't much fun now, so I retired them. With JU oldstyle PO players you could put a little fear in the opposition.

At least the Khemri team I replaced them with can rack up CAS, unlike the Norse, even if neither team is very good at actually winning games.

PS: LOL, my first Khemri game I won with no earned CAS...

reservoirelves · Post by **reservoirelves** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 8:14 am

I'd say leave them as they are.

The Norse win 47% of their games (counting ties as half a win). I don't know that you can make a change that will only have a 3% effect. You can easily overshoot and make them unbalanced the other way. Besides, with all the potential biases in the data you would have a hard time convincing a skeptic (yeah, that's me

) that there is even a reason to change anything at all.

I'm sure that there are many Norse coaches that win more that 50% of their games. A "How do I win with Norse?" post would probably get them to provide enough good advice to make up the 3%.

pfooti · Post by **pfooti** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 5:38 pm

reservoirelves wrote:I'd say leave them as they are.

The Norse win 47% of their games (counting ties as half a win). I don't know that you can make a change that will only have a 3% effect. You can easily overshoot and make them unbalanced the other way. Besides, with all the potential biases in the data you would have a hard time convincing a skeptic (yeah, that's me ) that there is even a reason to change anything at all.

I totally agree. They're good enough as they are. Leave them be. Not every team is supposed to be the same. Chaos doesn't do well in the first 10 games, but really gets rolling later on.

And I'm sure there are strategies that take advantage of advanced norse players in interesting ways (more than just getting tackle). For example:

You have 4 (5 counting the mino) players that START with frenzy. You can take a player that is practically in the MIDDLE of the LoS and push him out of bounds if you play your cards right (and get decent rolls). The sidelines are the norse's new Piling On. Get more frenzy. Get pro when available so you can reroll the blocks to get more pushes. Get some of the players stand firm and sidestep so they can end up on the sideline and not go OOB.

Post by **Dave** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 6:23 pm

pfooti wrote: And I'm sure there are strategies that take advantage of advanced norse players in interesting ways (more than just getting tackle). For example:

You have 4 (5 counting the mino) players that START with frenzy. You can take a player that is practically in the MIDDLE of the LoS and push him out of bounds if you play your cards right (and get decent rolls). The sidelines are the norse's new Piling On. Get more frenzy. Get pro when available so you can reroll the blocks to get more pushes. Get some of the players stand firm and sidestep so they can end up on the sideline and not go OOB.

oi .. leave my tactics alone

Talk Fantasy Football

Forget Dwarves, what do Norse need for balance

So, what should Norse get to make them a team that can still be competitive after the first ten games?