GW's Triple B League --- TBB WE NEED YOUR VOTES!!!

[neoliminal]

I was trying to find the charts someone did up which reflect the difference between the no-modifier system and the current system, but I can't find it. Anyone have a link?

[sean newboy]

While I think it's very important to take a measure of the thinking here on TBB, it's far from the center of the Blood Bowl world. As unpopular as that will likely make me here, it's true.

Explain where your data comes from, also explain why a set of votes from one country is more indicative of the whole bb community than this place that has contributing members from ... (pause while he checks the nationality polls) 12 countries having at least 10 people, most of those (if not all), from different leagues/areas of the countries? I find it hard to believe that tbb only attracts the rebel bb players of the world, that is those who disagree with the majority of all the bb coaches in the world.

[GalakStarscraper]

I was trying to find the charts someone did up which reflect the difference between the no-modifier system and the current system, but I can't find it. Anyone have a link?

Here you go Neo.

Okay some numbers on the Big Idea to give you an idea of the change the Bugman's league rules causes:

Claw/RSC Chaos Warrior:
Currently against AV 8 with a knock down

Code: Select all

State    LRB 2.0     Bugman's    Bugman's w/MB
Prone      42%          17%             8%
Stunned    16%          48%            54%
KO         18%          21%            23%
CAS        24%          14%            15%

I would argue that the Bugman's CW is a more effective player on the pitch (especially if he picks up Mighty Blow (+5 to AV)) ... but the game definitely loses a level of carnage from the change.

Mighty Blow Math ... knock down against AV 8

Code: Select all

State    LRB 2.0     Bugman's 
Prone      58%          58%           
Stunned    20%          24%           
KO         12%          11%           
CAS        10%           7%

Halfling Math ... knock down by any player without an AV modifer skill

Code: Select all

State    LRB 2.0     Bugman's 
Prone      28%          17%           
Stunned    30%          48%           
KO         22%          21%           
CAS        20%          14%  

My poor stunties will die less ... but its going to be tough doing strategy with an 18% increase in Stuns ... ouch!

Galak

[neoliminal]

While I think it's very important to take a measure of the thinking here on TBB, it's far from the center of the Blood Bowl world. As unpopular as that will likely make me here, it's true.

Explain where your data comes from,

What data are you talking about? If you mean "why do I think TBB is not the center of the BB universe", that's basic statistics and node theory.

also explain why a set of votes from one country is more indicative of the whole bb community than this place that has contributing members from ...

I never said the numbers from France were "more indicative of the whole bb community".

(pause while he checks the nationality polls) 12 countries having at least 10 people, most of those (if not all), from different leagues/areas of the countries?

It's a nice cross sampling of countries weighted in what appears to be similar weights to the countries that play blood bowl. That's not the issue.

I find it hard to believe that tbb only attracts the rebel bb players of the world, that is those who disagree with the majority of all the bb coaches in the world.

I would find that hard to believe too.

What I do believe is that communities create centerpoints of ideas through communication and dialogue. The fact that we've debated the merits of the "big idea" long before Bugmans rules were posted has certainly coloured our view of those rules. The debate may have been deeper, it might have been more insightful than the debate elsewhere, but it was certainly different than other communities of BB had.

Based on the information that's been presented here, and the arguements we have all heard, our opinions are made. Since other groups of BB players have not heard these ideas or arguements, they have most likely come to different conclusions. Perhaps they have seen something we missed or vice versa. Why they are different is less important than the fact that they are different.

If they were given the same information we were, they might see things our way. If we had seen their information, it might have swayed us to their point of view. But you can't deny that the French vote is drastically different than TBB's vote and that this clearly means that we saw things differently.

Assuming you accept that the French vote was different and was mostly likely based on the difference in information that was presented to both groups, then I can't understand how you could assume that TBB is the center of the BB universe. TBB is a highly educated (in terms of BB) group of players, but it's dwarfed by the number of players in local leagues who are their own communities and have their own opinions and get their information from other sources.

[Dark Lord (retired)]

I'm still waiting to see the data that shows WHY this change is needed.

And actually, I think the sheer numbers of Blood Bowl players in java bowl and PbeM leagues that are "LRB Only" shows that most people are happy with the rules as is.

[neoliminal]

I'm still waiting to see the data that shows WHY this change is needed.

Me too.

The only nice thing about it is that it cleans up the system... but I was hoping the changes on the back end were not so severe.

And actually, I think the sheer numbers of Blood Bowl players in java bowl and PbeM leagues that are "LRB Only" shows that most people are happy with the rules as is.

From the people that brought you the LRB... BBRC.

I think your fears on unfounded, but I have a bit more information on how the BBRC works than you do. You only have your conjecture.

[Grumbledook]

I am confident the BBRC won't let anything stupid happen

besides I am sure we can cause a large enough uproar if they do mess things up, I am sure fanatic would love to spend all day just reading emails complaining about rule changes ;]

[Colin]

I think that changing the rules just for the sake of simplification isn't the way to go, you simplify things to a point and then the game just becomes boring to play. The LRB just needs minor tweeks, unfortunately (the way I see it), Fanatic needs to sell BB Annuals every year and the Rules review is the major part of it, so I can't see the rules reach a point where no changes will be made. When the BBRC was formed and the October rules review was established, the first thing I thought was that there's always going to be changes made to the rules just to sell the Annuals, I could be wrong but that was my first impression. Why is it that suddenly there are rule suggestions being made that really have no reason to be made, ie there is no call from the BB community to fix the thing that is proposed to be changed? Or even worse when changes are officially made without any real reason, taking most people by suprise? For example, there was no call from the BB community to change Foul Appearance and no apparent reason too, now there are calls to change it back. I don't really understand why the no inj mod rule is being considered for testing as there was no outcry that this needed to be fixed. It just seems that some people think that simplifying the rules just for the sake of simplifying them is a good enough reason. Leave the rules alone (as far as major changes are concerned) and just address the miinor tweeks (the hot list on Galak's site) that people want looked at.

[Toby]

Blood Bowl is totally broken right now and I will explain why.

There are Coaches who play to win, and those who play to build a team, and of course those who do a mixture of both.

Now, Blood Bowl is a hard game. Knocking Opposing Players off the pitch to any injury box helps you win Games. On the other Hand, if the Damage that is done is PERMANENT, meaning Serious Injuries and Dead Players, then the "Fun Factor" is affected. Obviously for a normal minded person suffering casualties isn't fun, and the Coach that is delivering casualties normally gets a rather bad feeling as well when things start to get ugly.

That leads to the following situation:

"I dont play your team you have Piling on"
"I dont play you I didn't play 50 Games to build this team to see it RIP'ed appart"
"You seem to foul a lot I don't play you".

On the other Hand, the Elf Team that successfully Leveled their Wardancer up to 176 SPP by abusing, avoiding Strength Teams, and playing Halflings only will face Ageing. Which is basically the same effect a heavy Casualty has, with the exeption that nobody had the fun of scoring it.

So for me, the Character of the game should be like a Comic, where super hard blows are delivered, but nobody gets really hurt.

So, the idea of "No Injury Modifiers at all" is 100% the right way to go.
This will make the game more fun.
Sure, dead players are fun as well. IF it is something rare. Right now, the Amout of Heavy Casualties in the game is way too high. Together with Ageing, which totally spoils the fun for me, it is simply overkill.

[Colin]

Toby likes Neo's idea , is that the kiss of death?

[Toby]

I think, more flexibility is required.

For example, "Mighty Blow", which is right now +1 to Armour or Injury Rolls.

My suggestion for this skill would be similar to "Thick Skull".
Which gives a player a 50% chance not to be KO'ed, but only stunned instead.

Now, "If a player is knocked down and stunned by a Mighty Blow, there is a 50% chance for him to be KO'ed instead."

(Roll a D6 for the stunned player, 456 = KO'ed, blah blah...)

[Dark Lord (retired)]

And actually, I think the sheer numbers of Blood Bowl players in java bowl and PbeM leagues that are "LRB Only" shows that most people are happy with the rules as is.

From the people that brought you the LRB... BBRC.

I think your fears on unfounded, but I have a bit more information on how the BBRC works than you do. You only have your conjecture.

And I have never said you didn't have anything to do with it.
What I said is that it seems silly to even bother testing these rules when there are other things we'd like to see done.

Get off this trip that I hate you and the BBRc because it's crap.

[GalakStarscraper]

Neo makes a good point. What DID our French folks see that we didn't???

I tracked down the French poll ... (yeah, I'm a frecking fanatic ... get over it).

Could one of our French speaking friends on this board please grab the posts that were for no injury mods changes and let us know what they thought. This will answer two questions I have.

1) Did they see something we didn't like Neo proposes?
2) Did Louis count several opinions as Yes where the result is questionable. Survery interpretation is not simple stuff ... so I just want to get another opinion. I translated several of the opinions and I only saw a lot of comments that definitely read "no way".

So could someone French please translate the Yes for Injury mod posts and let us now what the positive comments were? Thanks. I really try to keep an open mind, and I want to see why they thought it was a good idea.

The other one I'm REALLY curious about ... could someone tell me what all those yes votes for the new SPP table were saying ... that one is so universally disliked I'm curious to see the comments.

Thanks in advance for this help.


French poll that Neo has been talking about:
http://www.midgardbb.com/JervisRules/FranceBBB.htm

Here are the french votes i gathered. These people hadn't voted yet:

52 people

1)yes 18 no 34 undecided 0
2)yes 30 no 21 undecided 1
3)yes 29 no 16 undecided 7
4)yes 18 no 30 undecided 4
5)yes 24 no 13 undecided 15
6)yes 31 no 18 undecided 3
7)yes 22 no 22 undecided 8
8)yes 10 no 37 undecided 5

Louis ... I'm sure you are going to take offense from this ... I'll apologize big time up front, but I've been translating a lot of those posts in that thread ... my limited french ... I'm just not seeing the 30 yes votes for the no injuries mod. I have found some that talk about as simply removing Sigard's and saying it will have no real effect on the game, but no real discussion that shows why it was liked ... that's what I want to see. I also cannot find a single post that liked the new SPP table and Louis said there was 18. My concern ... I'll be frank ... that Louis defaulted to a Yes vote for items on the poll if there was an uncertain answer. If this is completely off basis ... I'll fully apologize. But I've spent the last 2 hours translating this discussion thread and I just cannot see where the numbers he reported are coming from or the reasons behind them.

Could a French friend please help?

Galak

[Darkson]

My fear with the simlification of the BB rules is that they will do the same to it as they did to 40k a few years back.

Now don't get me wrong, I really like the 40k background, in fact it's my favourite GW fluff, but the game has een reduced to"kiddies" level, from the game I used to play. Ok, the game as was (2nd ed) need changng so you could actually play a game in under 4 hours, but they went to far in simplifying it - imo.

And now I have this fear it's what's planned for BB

[sean newboy]

If anyone wants a simplified bloodbowl, there is a topic here at tbb about a new milton bradley game, go play that. I dont mind the average 10 year old not wanting to play, i want the exception 10 year olds.