Ogres, Dwarfs, Secret Weapons

[Thadrin]

DARK ELVES HAVE AG4. DWARFS ON AVERAGE HAVE AG2.
Or hadn't you noticed?

This means: Dark Elves can pretty much always skip happily away from blocks they don't want to take on. Dwarfs can't.

ST3 plus dauntless is MAYBE a counter for 4 Chaos Warriors, or 4 Black Orcs...but NOT Big Guys.

[Dave]

I don't like Ogres in a Dwarf team.

I DO like the new secret weapons rules, but they could be made a bit more favouring to the stunties to compensate for not getting a Big Guy

I think the discussion shouldn't be: Can Dwarfs have an Ogre

But: Why have allmost all teams acces to a BG.

I think that if the accesability (Phew) of BG's was limited, and perhaps changed (NO ogres on Halfling / Gobbo teams) the problem wouldn't be there.

If only Halflings (Tree) Gobbo's (Troll) Chaos (Mino) Skaven (Rat Ogre) and humies (Ogre) had Big Guys the discussion wouldn't arise.

Now Ogre's are allmost a Must Have to perform decently in a league

That's a pity IMHO

[ZanzerTem]

I have no problem with opposing Big Guys, and I play a non-Ogre Dwarf team in my tabletop league. I constantly play Undead (2 STR5 Mummies) and have no problems. Dauntless, Thick Skull, and Block go a long way

Ogres are a nice addition (my FUMBBL team has one), but they aren't a necessity. The issues that dwarves have about winning are not based on their lack of strength, it's their lack of AGI and MA.

[Thadrin]

I think Dave has it right: the problem isn't that dwarfs can have big guys, its that TOO DAMNED MANY teams can.

My system:
0-2 Trolls on the Goblin roster
0-2 Treemen on the Halfling roster
0-1 Ogre may be substituted for 2 Chaos Warriors on the Chaos roster.
0-1 Troll may be substituted for 1 Black Orc on the Orc Roster (no typo...noone in their right mind would sub two BOs for a Troll).
0-1 Rat Ogre may be substituted for 2 Gutter Runners on the Skaven roster.
0-1 Minotaur may be substituted for EITHER two Chaos Warriors on the Chaos roster OR 2 Norse Blitzers.
0-1 Kroxigor may be substituted for 2 Saurus on the Lizardman roster.

That gets all the big guys in the game, in limited numbers, at a cost to the team taking them. It also stops the teams that don't really have any reason to have a big guy having them, and I include Humans in this.Gives more choice on rosters with a limited numebr of positions in the case of Chaos, halfling, Gobbo and Lizardman too.

Simple.

[Norse]

Gets my vote!!

with a couple of exceptions... I don't think Norse should even get a big guy, let alone a choice of two....

also, Chaos should have the option of Mino or Troll if you want to keep with WHFB fluff...

I agree though, the sudden and widespread availability of normal price Ogres is, IMHO, just a ploy to get us all to buy a ton of the new BB Ogre when he is finally released...

If you limit BG availability, or make it costly to teams in other ways (in the way Thads has above) then you can also re-introduce SWs...

Let's face it, who needs BGs when you can have chainsaws and deathrollers?

[Redfang]

Yeah,

Beer, Chainsaws and Deathrollers (and Gold, of course)

That's what we want!!!

[Thadrin]

I gave Chaos the choice of a Mino. Stuff the Troll. No Chaos team would ever take one over an Ogre or Mino would they? (yes, I know the 2nd ed. All stars had one....)

The Norse? well, A mino handed me a TD against a Norse team on monday...but really I wanted to reflect the fact that Norse and Chaos Marauder are practically interchangable in WFB fluff these days. Lose the mino there and it doesn't bother me.

Still only one Big guy per team I would think, though a Chaos team with an Ogre and a Mino instead of all four warriors would be interesting.

I'd be inclined to remove the restriction against Big guys using rerolls if this idea was used...except on "Racial characteristic" rolls (no rerolling Bonehead, Really Stupid, etc.). Takes care of the "ogre team and rerolls" problem too in one fell swoop.

[Redfang]

I never faced an experienced Chaos team in the old days (3rd edition, for me)
I do remember that they could have 4 warriors plus a troll an ogre and a mino back then.

I think taking away 2 warriors for one big guy might be a bit harsh...
Chaos should still be a strength power house (maybe)

R

[Mestari]

I'd be inclined to remove the restriction against Big guys using rerolls if this idea was used...

The idea is good except for this part. The restriction against using TRR's is a brilliant idea. The insecurity that it brings is an excellent thing. Triple skulling when blocking with a ST7 treeman is something I've seen and I liked the fact that there was nothing that they could do about it.
Not only because it was useful for me, but also because I liked the fact how this affected the tactics: blocks with the BG are not automatic: there is a far greater TO risk involved.

[Redfang]

I agree

Otherwise each turn action 1 would be Big Guy hits player X.
(I know this, with my Undead team my first action each turn is Mummy1 hits player X, Mummy2 hits player A. Unless I need a blitz for something else.)

Now you're forced to think before doing that

[Sushé Wakka]

I think that the Chaos Warriors in the Chaos roster are already too limited in numbers to reduce them even further. If that idea of switching big guys for blockers ever works, I'd like to see the Chaos Warriors in the list go up to 0-6 (they should go up anyway, Chaos is the team with less position players and with less positions aviable. With this they'd at least match the rest of the teams in the cuantity of position players).

[Grumbledook]

Chaos can get mutations and str skills on every single player though. Lizardmen with 6st4 players is laods, letting chaos have this as well is pushing things way too far.

Btw thads i love that proposal. Ive just bought a troll for my chaos dwarf team becuase basically i have no other way of dealing with other teams bug guys. I've resisted for ages but after losing to an orc team and getting completly out muscled, I don't see I have much of a choice.

[Skummy]

Thadrin:

The real problem I have with your list is that it doesn't take into account the teams that have gained extra positional slots *because* they were not allowed to have big guys. What I'd really like to see is every team gaining four blitzer positions and access to Big Guys, but they have to give up 2 blitzer slots to hire a Big Guy.

So you'd wind up with:

Amazons: (0-4 Blitzers or 0-2 and a Treeman)
Chaos: (0-4 Chaos Warriors or 0-2 and a Minotaur, Ogre or Troll)
Chaos Dwarf: (0-6 Chaos Dwarf Blockers or 0-4 and a Troll or Minotaur)
Dark Elves: (0-4 Blitzers or 0-2 and a Minotaur)
Dwarf: (0-4 Blitzers or 0-2 and a Troll)
Goblin: (Stays the same)
Halfling: (Stays the same)
High Elves: (0-4 blitzers or 0-2 and a Treeman)
Human: (0-4 Blitzers or 0-2 and an Ogre)
Lizardmen: (0-6 Saurus or 0-4 and a Kroxigor)
Norse: (0-4 Blitzers or 0-2 and an Ogre or Troll)
Orc: (0-4 Blitzers or 0-2 and an Ogre or Troll)
Skaven: (0-4 Storm Vermin or 0-2 and a Rat Ogre)
Undead: (0-4 Wights and 1 Mummy or 0-2 Wights and 2 Mummies)
Wood Elves: (0-4 Catchers or 0-2 and a Treeman. I'm afraid that 4 Wardancers on one team would break the game.)

[Grumbledook]

um all the teams got extra positional players when the rookie big guys were introduced. High elves got 2 extra catchers for example. So i see what your doing and it works all apart from the High Elves cause they were given extra catchers rather than blitzers. Also won't giving dwarfs 4 blitzers unbalence them a bit? An extra 2 ag3 players on their team changes things, maybe extra 2 troll slayers?

So yer i like that list on the whole, though maybe amazons have a krox option as well. Don't know why but i've always thought the krox suited them best out of all the big guys.

[Skummy]

I could certainly live with those changes. Mind you, four players with Frenzy sounds better to me than four players with a 3 agility - but it has been ages since I coached a Dwarf team.