Drawing the line and probabilities

[neoliminal]

Dice. What an interesting subject.

"Lucky" Dice

Let's assume for the moment that dice can be "Lucky". If I have a set of dice that I know roll "Lucky", then isn't it cheating to use them? Look at it this way. Let's assume that the "Lucky" dice give me a better chance of rolling a 5 or 6. Well that's the same as letting me play with an 8 sided dice and calling evey 7 & 8 a six, right? Not very sporting.

So if you honestly believe in "Lucky" dice, and you use them... you're cheating. From a non-believer's point of view you're at least trying to cheat by using dice you believe roll better than random.

Dice Manipulation

I know some people think dice are random, but they aren't. The fact of the matter is that you can control many aspects of the roll and increase the odds of a favorable result. With practice you can get a better than average result by flipping the dice in just the right way.

Things to look for from:

* Priming the dice by setting them the same way before every roll. For example, setting the dice to all sixes or all POWs up.
* Flipping the dice in the air and having it land flat, without a bounce that changes the facing.
* Sharp Edge dice that are easier to roll without a bounce. The larger the better.

I had a friend who didn't believe it was possible to cheat dice this way, so I practiced it and then showed him. The ironic part was that I did this because this was the way he rolled the dice. I'm pretty sure he wasn't trying to cheat... so be aware that you can cheat the dice even if you aren't trying to cheat the dice.

We had one guy who used Casino dice. The problem with these dice were that they are very large and require lots of "roll" to get them to be random. His dice consistantly landed flat, and often with a nice big 6 on top. He also got holes in my board.

Sharing Dice

My father had a way of making sure that my brothers always had equal portions of cake or pie. He'd make one measure out the portions, and the other got first pick.

If dice are supposed to be random number generators, then the best possible way to ensure that everyone gets similarly random numbers is for both coaches to use the same dice. That way if the dice are slightly less random... both coaches suffer or gain from the irregularity.

Some coaches are very possesive of their dice, but to be honest, these tend to be the younger or less mature coaches. When confronted with these coaches, I offer to buy "game dice". We both chip in for a set (or just me if they have no money) and the winner gets to keep them. Dice are cheap, good coaches are hard to find.

Most Random

The dice I've found that the most random are the 12mm rounded corner dice. If you actually roll them like you would a marble, then your probably going to end up with a random roll. For a long time I avoided these dice because we played in a timed league, and every second mattered to me. As I've gotten better and as I've started to hate streaky dice, I've become more appreciative of the rounded edge dice.

Ironically these are the dice that come with most GW games.

[Colin]

I would have to agree with Neo and the "bunny-man" (th lapin) about the whole 'lucky dice' thing. I don't believe that it is a matter of opinion if a person is cheating when they use their 'lucky dice', the fact is - they are cheating, whether they believe it or not. It really bugs me to see people who buy dice, but have to roll them first to see if they 'roll good'. Of course all they are doing is checking for the imperfect dice that will not give a totally random roll and will come up with a certain roll more than an average amount. Any diliberate attempt to influence the result of the cie roll is cheating, a die roll is intended to be random. I would say the same thing about people who drop the dice instead of rolling (diliberately thrying to manipulate the die roll). Anyone who did that while playing me, I would tell them to pick up the dice, shake and then ROLL it.

[Ghost of Pariah]

Some coaches are very possesive of their dice, but to be honest, these tend to be the younger or less mature coaches.

Hey now! You haven't seen the power of my lucky 20 sider!

What about not letting certain coaches use my dice? Certain coaches who have a habit of rolling ones and skulls, cursing dice, and are basically full of bad mojo?

[CyberHare]

John what a great post! In these few paragraphs you've made me realize that I myself was doing something that, though unintentional, was in line with trying to influence the die roll....

* Priming the dice by setting them the same way before every roll. For example, setting the dice to all sixes or all POWs up.

I've never thought about it till this very moment but I sometimes place some of my block dice with the POWs up, usually while waiting for my opponent to finish their turn. I never did it to try and cheat but now that I think about it, you're right. It is infleuncing the dice or at least trying to influence them subconsiously. That's the last time I'll do that. Not that it ever helped, intentional or not

*I had a friend who didn't believe it was possible to cheat dice this way, so I practiced it and then showed him.

Hmm, gonna have to keep an eye on mister magic hands at the next tourney.

Until right now I've always dislike the 12mm dice that come with the game. I never thought of the point that the larger the die the more "roll" it needs to actually be random. And you are 100% correct about the casino dice. They are meant to be thrown not rolled.

I'm going out today and getting myself a set of 12mm dice with rounded corners.

So what about coming up with guidelines for dice at tournaments. Do people think that's a good idea. Do people hate it? How would everyone feel if they turned up at a tournament and they were handed a set of dice to use. Or if they were requested to bring dice of a certein specification?

[DaImp]

I think it would be totally fair in a tournament situation to force all coaches to use the official 12mm GW dice. You have to use GW miniatures etc... so the dice would just be a natural extension of this. Handing out d6's to every coach that there were forced to use would be even fairer as there could be no chance of the dice being fixed.

I can't say I have a problem with coaches using different dice to the ones that came in the box except for those annoying see through dice which make reading the numbers very hard... those I feel are worth banning.

And coaches must put the dice in 2 cupped hands, shake them about and then roll the dice. I can't see how anyone can cheat when dice are rolled this way.

[Ghost of Pariah]

Rolling cups would be a good idea too. Probably easier to use than handing out dice. They probably won't get the dice back but the cups would be harder to swipe.

[wesleytj]

Am I the only one who thinks you guys are taking all this a little too far? Banning dice? Making tourney rules for dice size? Making rules for HOW a die must be rolles? Do you guys really have this kind of free time on your hands?

I have dice that I use. I like to color code them...I have black and red dark elf dice. I have green orc dice, and so on. It's not that I'm trying to cheat (if I am I suck at it). And no I don't REALLY believe in dice karma, that some dice are "lucky" while others aren't, but it's kinda fun to talk about as though it were true.

I DO think it's cheating when people try to roll the dice in such a way as to get a better outcome (no bouncing etc) but it doesn't take special rules to prevent that. You see a guy do it, you say "roll it right" and that's that.

I DON'T think it's cheating when people have their "lucky" dice. It's not about cheating, it's a simple matter of psychology. If people think they have lucky dice they tend to take more chances they might otherwise not take, which if anything HURTS them. I always assume I have the worst dice in the world, and I'm never disappointed, only ocassionally surprised.

Jesus people, this is a game. Don't take the fun out of the game with a lawyer's book of by-laws on how to properly roll a die, or handing out "standardized" dice to people because you think they're cheaters.

[Colin]

For an official tourney, I think it is perfectly reasonable to have the dice all the same. in local leagues it's up to the commish. Remember that an official tourney you win prizes and (if you are a member of the NAF) your NAF rating is affected by how well you did. To ban people from using their own dice at tourneys is acceptable to me because you are trying to keep the games on an even level so that the player's skill will be more of a determining factor in who wins or loses (not because some muppet brought dice that tend to roll more 6s than other dice). I would also support specific rules for rolling dice at tourneys, ie shaking in hand and rolling on table, not just dropping.
If you are in a league that everyone has there own 'lucky' dice and everyone is fine with that, who cares, but at an official tournament there has to be rules to minimize the (intentional or unintentional) cheating.

[Ghost of Pariah]

I agree, Torg. I'm amazed at how many people are willing to cheat at silly boardgames. My league didn't have much problem with cheaters but I have seen cheaters come and go at the local game store. People cheat at D&D for cryin out loud!! That one blew my mind. Why cheat at agame you can't "win"?

People cheat at tournies. never been to one but I'd bet my entire worth that, right now, some idiot is working on a way to cheat at The Blood Bowl.

Probably more than one.

[Rustycan]

I have a bunch of 6 sided dice that are 3mm a side. So if the larger the dice the more roll needed to be random, then these babies should be great!! Of course trying to find the suckers after you roll them is quite the feat!<BR>"hey can you lift up your gobbo mini, my dice are stuck between his toes......."

[CyberHare]

Do you guys really have this kind of free time on your hands?

If only I did then I might be able to learn some of dice rolling tricks Neo is talking about

I have dice that I use. I like to color code them...I have black and red dark elf dice. I have green orc dice, and so on...

I think most of us have our favorite dice. There's nothing wrong with that and if the rest of the league is ok with a person using their, oh say, hot pink, d6's then who cares right? There could never be official rules to gouvern dice use in a local league setting. It just wouldn't work and that's not what I'm trying to get at.

In a tournament setting though, where prizes and a NAF rating are on the line I tend to be a little more cautious. There are rules concerning the painting of ones figures and the type of figures used and they don't even effect the outcome of the game. Would it be wrong to have rules about one of the major factors in a game of Blood Bowl, the dice. In my opinion it would be a great idea.

[Munkey]

If you're playing against friends then you should be able to trust them and point out when they're not rolling properly or have suspicious dice.

Against opponents you do not know so well I guess it depends on the setting you play in, league commish, etc but using the same dice if you are suspicious and pointing out dodgy rolling should be able to get round most problems.

In a tournament setting I agree that standard dice would not be a bad thing and may help to alleviate any possible bad feeling or unfair accusations of cheating.

I tend to be a fairly trusting opponent but it is amazing the lengths a minority of people will go to to win at things that are largely played for fun. Hopefully most coaches would spend the time thinking about plays and improving their game if they have time on their hands rather than learning how to cheat.

[Darkson]

I don't have "lucky" dice, just "lucky" opponents. Against one player in our club I always roll 6's and POW's, the other 1's and skulls, and I'm using the same dice.

[Ghost of Pariah]

The reason I call my orange D20 "lucky" is not because it rolls high all the time! It's for D&D remember! If I need to roll under my intelligence score...Lucky 2! If I need to kill an orc in front of me so I an rush to the aid of the Magic User...Lucky nat 20! She's my precious!

[Colin]

Maybe we should change your username to Gollum.