BB2 Full listof changes to crp

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Read what I wrote. Forget about CRP petty cash. With the Bank rule all your treasury(i.e. everything not in the bank) is added to TV whether you spend it or not.

[Shteve0]

I read what you wrote. There's a big difference between your treasury counting towards TV and your treasury being in petty cash. If it's in PC he can't save it. If it's in treasury he can't decide to spend it. Nothing to do with the bank.

Garion was going to save his 200k but after Jimmy bought a Wiz he decides to use 150k treasury to purchase a Wiz.

The above constitutes a change (or misimplementation) of the rules over and above the implementation of the bank rule as described.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

There is no petty cash with the bank rule. Petty cash is CRP. Bank rule is BB2. This is how it works.

[Shteve0]

Then I misunderstood (and now I understand it, object to) the bank rule. Cheers.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Happy to help

[Vanguard]

I'm not sure I'm setting where the confusion is coming from. The existing Petty Cash rules are:

Both teams at this point may transfer gold pieces from their team
treasury into petty cash. Petty cash may be used during the
current match to purchase inducements and adds directly to the
team value of the team for this match.

With the Bank rule, all cash over the 150k is effectively Petty Cash, so there no reason to specify a transfer. (Unlike using some of the 150k, which would need to be specified)

Sounds like the rule implementation is OK, apart from the order of teams picking inducements.

[Shteve0]

The confusion for me was (1) the talk of spending treasury. You can't spend treasury. It needs to be transferred to petty cash. And (2) the talk to that point was that treasury counts towards TV, not that it was transferred to petty cash. If I'm not mistaken you're the first person to post that. Where did you find it?

[Darkson]

This is how it should work, apart from that it's now 150k in the Bank, not 100k.

Originally from GalakStarscraper:

dode74 asked me to explain the inducements.

First off .. Petty Cash. Petty Cash is the one rule in LRB 6.0 that Jervis invented and did not allow to go through playtesting. It was a command from on high that it be added to the game (and in my opinion its poorly conceived and confusing). I've been pretty public for some time now that Jervis coming in at the last second to add this rule to Blood Bowl when everything else had been properly tested was a breaking of his own directives for how LRB 5.0 and 6.0 were supposed to be created. And I think Petty Cash clearly shows what happens when even a talented game designers throws an off the top of his head rule into a design that has been large scale playtested and approved over a 2 year period. This is not revealing any big behind the curtain secret. Everyone knew what PBBL version 1.12 looked like that was involved in the playtesting that was supposed to become LRB 5.0. Then LRB 5.0 shows up with the Petty Cash rule that none of the BBRC had discussed ... it was obvious to all involved that Jervis had used veto power to put the rule in.

What was SUPPOSED to be the LRB rules instead of Petty Cash and had the full backing of the BBRC and playtest group before submission to Jervis was the "Bank" rules which I've posted at the end of the post. Again no secret reveal here ... these were public domain knowledge on the public ruletesting for over a year for LRB 5.0 (and the rule worked really well).

As for the point of Petty Cash as it is written. The point is that you cannot bank a lot of gold and then suddenly use it to become a hugh overdog and squash your opponent. As EVERY game of Blood Bowl starts with BOTH teams having the same TV within 40k of each other. Inducements are not as good as the real thing ... but if you take the amount spent and add it to TV you get equal numbers. If Petty Cash allowed you to add to your total without adjustment than the match could easily become more than 40k unequal.

For the person that posted that if he was getting 40k in inducements and wanted to add in 10k from this Treasury to get a 50k Babe for example (or Bribe for Goblins) ... the Bank rules that I wrote for LRB 5.0 and that Jervis threw out would have allowed that to happen. The Petty Cash rules that he wrote do not.

So ... I don't know what to tell you other than ... Inducements work great. Petty Cash is a disaster of a rule in Blood Bowl and its the only one in CRP/LRB 6.0 that I didn't have any hand at all in testing or reviewing for re-crafting. Take that for what its worth.

Personally ... my CRP Blood Bowl league used the rules from CRP as is except for only one house rule. We use the Bank and have discarded Petty Cash ... because that's what was supposed to be in the LRB.

Galak



Bank rules which used to be in LRB instead of Petty Cash were:
Add this to the part of the rulebook discussing how to calcuate Team Value

Bank
The NAF offers a banking service which can save up to 100,000 gold pieces for a team so they do not have to risk carrying excess amounts of gold when travelling between matches. Gold saved in the bank should be recorded on the team roster but does not affect Team Value allowing your team to save for purchases without giving away inducements. You can only add to or remove gold from the bank during the Post-game sequence (see page 38).

Team Value
In League matches the ‘value’ of a team affects whether it receives Inducements for playing a match (see pages 35 to 36) and if it suffers from Spiralling Expenses (see page 38). The value of a team (often abbreviated to ‘TV’) is worked out by adding up the value of the players that will play for the team in its next match, including extra value from improvements, to the cost of coaching staff, team re-rolls, Fan Factor, and any gold in the treasury. Record the value of your team in the appropriate space on the team roster. Note that gold in the bank and any players that are missing the game due to injury do not count towards the
Team Value.

Pre-Game sequence change:

2. Inducements
Teams that are at a disadvantage are often given ‘inducements’ to play that will help even the odds. Usually this takes the form of
extra gold, offered by the stadium owner to help convince a team to take part in a match against a superior opponent (and thus
allowing the stadium owner to recoup his losses and more through tickets sales and merchandise!). To represent this, an underdog in a match may be given a certain amount of gold that can be used to buy things for the team to help them in the upcoming match. The amount of gold the team receives is equal to the difference between the total value of the underdog team and the total value of the opposing team. For example, if one coach had a team worth 1,000,000 gold pieces while his opponent had a team worth 1,250,000 gold pieces, then the first coach would be allowed to spend 250,000 gold pieces on Inducements. Any of the gold that is not spent on Inducements is lost and may not be added to the team treasury. In addition, either coach may use gold from their treasury (but not their bank) to purchase Inducements. If the superior opponent wishes to purchase inducements with gold from his treasury, he must do so before the underdog purchases any of his inducements.

This is the Post Game sequence:

1. Delete any players that have been killed from the roster, and record any changes to a player’s value for improvements.

2. Generate winnings for the match. Each coach rolls a D6 and adds their FAME (see page 18). Your team receives this amount x 10,000 gold pieces as winnings for the match. If you won or tied the match you receive an additional 10,000 gold pieces. If you won the match you may also choose to reroll your D6, but you must accept the second result even if it is worse than the first. Remember that teams that concede a match do not receive any winnings.

3. Each coach must now pay for spiralling expenses through gold in treasury and/or the bank (see the next section on this page).

4. If a coach lost or tied the match he should 2D6. The winning coach should roll 3d6. If a coach won or tied the match and his roll is greater than his team’s current Fan Factor then his team’s Fan Factor increases by one point. If the coach lost or tied the match and his roll is less than his team’s current Fan Factor then his team’s Fan Factor decreases by one point.

5. Each coach may now transfer gold from his treasury to his bank or to his treasury from the bank (remember that the bank cannot hold more than 100,000 gold pieces).

6. Each coach must decide if they wish to spend any gold in the team treasury to buy new players and coaching staff for their team, and/or let go (i.e. fire) any team re-rolls, players, or coaching staff from their team who are no longer wanted - however, you don’t get your gold back. In addition, each coach can choose to spend gold from their treasury to increase their team’s re-rolls. Adding a re-roll costs double the amount shown on the team list, but only adds the basic (un-doubled) cost to the total value of the team. NOTE: gold still in the bank cannot be used to purchase players, coaching staff, or team re-rolls.

7. If your team has any Journeymen (see step 8 below) on the roster you must either fire them from the team or you may permanently hire them by paying their rookie cost if you have less than 16 players on your roster. If you hire a Journeyman, he loses the Loner skill but may retain any Star Player Points he earned or skills learned from Improvement rolls.

8. If your team can only field 10 or less players for the next match, you may bring Journeymen onto your team for free until your team can field 11 players for the next match. A Journeyman is always a player from a 0-12 or 0-16 position on your team's roster, counts his normal rookie cost towards your total team value, but has the Loner skill as they are unused to playing with your team. Journeymen may take the total players on your team (including injured players) to more than 16 at this point.

9. Work out the total value of the team and record it on the roster. The value of a team is worked out by adding up the value of the team’s players (including extra values for improvements), support staff, team re-rolls, Fan Factor, plus the gold in your treasury. Do not include the value of gold in the bank or any players that will be forced to miss their next match due to injury.

[Regash]

Since I don't buy this game due to these unnecessary and confusing changes, I can only say what I've read elsewhere.

In a german forum, people were wondering and confused about the inducements, not being able to understand the petty cash.
From what I've read and understood, it seems that Cyanide made this "mistake" Shteve0 fears: TV is calculated BEFORE petty cash is added.
(Again, this might be wrong, I don't have the game to verify it!)

[garion]

Looks like JJ was spot on when he vetoed bank rule. It is overly confusing and completely pointless, and massively unrealistic. All that is going to happen once people get used to it is cash dumping. I don't get how anyone thought it was a good idea. Why would a sports team throw money away...... So dumb. If they are that worried about teams getting rich just make SE harsher.

Regash - I don't think cyanide understand the rules tbh.

[Regash]

The bank rule...
To be quite frank, I'm not sure what money has to do with a teams performance.
Why would any money count against TV of a team? Does it help throwing passes? Does it grant you rerolls?

In my opinion, money should be left out of TV as it has no influence on performance at all.
The team with lesser TV should get the amount of money for inducements, that's it. The team with higher TV shouldn't be allowed to buy any inducements at all.
It is the supposedly better team, why let them buy improvements too? (Starplayers should be hired before the game so they up the TV.)

Again, TV is used as a measurement of how "good" a team is.
Does your boss value your work higher because you have some money in the bank?

[Vanguard]

As I see it, the point (or at least, one of the points) of the Bank rule was to penalise teams who built up huge cash reserves. A team with a large treasury can afford to replace lost players immediately which is an advantage. Not just in the meta game, but also in the immediate, on-the-pitch game. It allows the coach to take more risks with players if he knows he is unlikely to suffer in the long term. A coach with no cash reserves has to be more conservative with his players.

We've been using the Bank rule for the past couple of seasons in my local league. The effect is that it very quickly encourages teams to keep cash reserves to 150k or less. Excess cash tends to be spent on cards or star players rather then allow it to give your opponent 'free' inducements. While spending it in this way means that the opposing team still receives inducemetns to the value of your treasury, at least your team also gains the benefit.

[garion]

its completely unrealistic though, it makes people cash dump which is stupid, why would a team throw money away?

just make SE stricter if it is actually causing problems without bank rule. However i see no evidence at all that having money = winning, in fact the teams that seem to have the most money is undead and I haven't seen them win a thing in CRP apart from a few lower division titles in the leagues I see.

Are there any more changes? can anyone explain how the stadium stuff actually works, whether the upgrades add to TV and whether the elf turn cancels the astroturf, or if there is a home team?

[plasmoid]

All I can say is that Bank was never intended to circumvent Team Value calculation.

In the original Bank rule, you decided in your post-game how your Cash was split between bank and treasury.
Bank Cash was unavailable for the next match (so didn't Count towards TV)
Treasury Cash was available for the next match, meaning that it counted towards TV - but was then available for indecements at no extra cost (as you had already counted the value once).

The rewrite I did simple combined that concept with the now well known Petty Cash rules from CRP.
Meaning: There is only 1 treasury. No "Bank".
You can always move treasury/Cash into Petty Cash - but when you do, your team value increases (reducing inducements by the same ammount, if you were getting any).
The "Bank" cap was just that any Cash above the cap was automatically moved to Petty Cash - meaning that it Counts towards TV.
You don't have to spend the Petty Cash, and you don't lose the Petty Cash if you don't - but it contributes to your Team Value all the same.

In either system there is no 'topping off'. So it sounds like they got it wrong.
Cheers
Martin

[Darkson]

its completely unrealistic though,

Says a man pkaying a game with giant humaniod rats, bomb-throwing goblins and chainsaw-wielding dwarfs.

If you want a fluff justification remember teams are travelling fron one end of the olde worlde to the other ( and beyond) and the place us full of bandits, pirates, marauders etc, not to mention corrupt city officials (taxes), thieves, conmen when they arrive at their destination. Easiser to drop (use) the money than risk losing it.

[Edit] Really must stop trying to type on my phone.