What if Cyanide did to BloodBowl what GW did to Warhammer?

[Olaf the Stout]

What other reason would there be to make a digital version of BB than to keep this great game alive?

Money?

[Darkson]

Have you actually read everything I wrote? I get the feeling you didn`t...

Yes I did, and you seem to live in an unfortunate world where you believe GW is some altruistic company dedicated to given gamers whats best for gamers, when in fact Olaf gave you the truth in one word:

What other reason would there be to make a digital version of BB than to keep this great game alive?

Money?

GW only gave the digital license to Cyanide because it got them more money than they'd have got from damages (because Cyanide is a small company), otherwise they'd have been happy to let the game wallow in history.

Now it's still out there they will do whatever they feel will bring them the best return, be that Khorne, Bretts or Sigmarines. If they decided that the best way to make more money from BB was to blow up the BB world and have it as a sports game based on the AoS fluff then they will do.

And that is their right, whether you, I or anyone else likes it.

To believe anything different is at best naive.

[harvestmouse]

Hmmmmmmm The main point is; why did GW do that to Warhammer? The reason is that because full on TT war games have become old hat. This means Warhammer found itself between 2 niches. 1. The TT war gamer who is far too mature for fantasy. (I think Warhammer Ancients over time drew a lot of the older/stalwart players away from Fantasy). 2. The younger gamer who doesn't have the attention span or in all likelihood the mileage to continue in the hobby very long. There are other games that cater for both groups better.

I'm pulling this fact out of my arse but outside of golf there probably isn't a hobby anywhere in the world where hobbiest have spent a ton of money on their hobby, never to use it. Enough lead (and crappy plastic) to make a mountain to mars....and back! Well you get the point, so they've bit the bullet and excepted these small skirmish, ready painted, larger figure, throw away rules war games are doing it better and have jumped on board. The kids of 2015 have immense amount of resources at hand and can make far more informed decisions about their games rather than what's the most available or promoted the hardest. This is why they have done this to Warhammer. I get the feeling they thought about this long and hard, rumour suggests there was a lot of conflict in the studio about it and finally the AoS decision was made to 'save' Warhammer.

I guess what has happened in the game (fluffwise) is a parody of the real life predicament. The near destruction only to survive in a somewhat stripped down and grittier form.

So if we take the main points from this.

*Large scale fantasy wargames require far too much dedication/commitment initial outlay of money.
*Skirmish games are more popular.
*Less figures and time for each game please.

BB already meets this criteria, so there isn't really a need 'to do a warhammer, on BB'. It simply doesn't have the same problems that Warhammer had. You also have to look (if we are talking about Cyanide) about how many extra teams/races they could add. Well how deep is your well? Mines extremely deep! There is a limitless amount of teams they could add without even trying to fit the AoS stuff. It just doesn't seem necessary. You gave me a month, I could have 200 new team ideas with fluff on your desk. All fitting the existing theme(s), from this point AoS is only necessary if you want to re invent the game, if the game itself is feeling stale.

I guess we have to try to second guess our future. I'll admit, I have no idea where we're going. What would GW do if they picked up BB again? Well I'd also guess that JJ would be very anti an AoS sort of change. I think that BB would try to separate itself further from Warhammer and you may see the Warhammer style races (CD, HE) go or redone. If Cyanide dictates the future, well...................they really don't know what they're doing from a creative or gameplay stand point, which is frustrating for them and for us.

Them "Whatever we try, it seems to make you angry, even when we do what you want!"
Us "I can't believe you've just done that, do you have any idea about the subtle little nuances of this game!"

I do think though as a computer game it differs from most. In that the existing community is very important and is very important to Cyanide. Where as a new game stands or falls by the product, BB has a guaranteed player base. Further more, players Cyanide bring in, that might have disappeared after a year, do not. They stay due to either the finely tuned rule pack, or find that there is a long existing community playing this game in many forms. We have so much depth. So, I think this is important to Cyanide, the games popularity has a guarantee of some sorts. This means that Cyanide feels obliged to cater to the existing player base to some extent. They obviously did research or know about the background to add the Khorne roster. I think they've also taken into account some of the negative feedback and sought/sourced material from the community (aka Bretonnians and CRP+). The problems here are; you can watch hours of youtube clips on wine tasting, but that doesn't make you a wine connoisseur. Also that towards the end you felt that the BBRC were going even further to remove ties with the Warhammer World (too far for me), however Cyanide can't really see these little nuances and are reversing that trend. Which is the problem, they're a blind man attempting to lead the way.

So in short or to conclude I have 3 points.
*Commercially BB doesn't need the AoS treatment.
*The existing community's opinion is important to Cyanide.
*With all the good intentions, we can't trust Cyanide to not royally **** things up.

[plasmoid]

Hi Harvestmouse,
I think you make some excellent points:

*Commercially BB doesn't need the AoS treatment.
*The existing community's opinion is important to Cyanide.
*With all the good intentions, we can't trust Cyanide to not royally **** things up.

I just want to add that there seems (to me) to be a lot of talk about Cyanide ****ing up the rules, but I personally can't see that they have.
Yes, we know that their programming has been shoddy. Absolutely true. But that is an issue separate from the actual rules.

They took a stab at a Khorne roster (which was horrible) - then got help from a few key community members to make a better Khorne team.
I get that some don't like the fluff, but Khorne 2.0 certainly didn't ruin the game. I think it was nice to see something new.
I'm sure they learned their lesson here, and I'm certain that they've involved community members again when developing BB2.

Yes, Brets rub some people the wrong way.
And AV8 human catchers isn't everyone's cup of tea.
But as far as I can tell neither those nor the Marketplace or their version of ageing are decisions that **** Things up.
(I know that's not what you're saying, Harvestmouse, it just wanted to get it out there).

Cheers
Martin

[harvestmouse]

That's a big ol can of worms you've opened up there. I predict a few broadsides!

[plasmoid]

I'll live. But thanks for the warning
I just wanted to point to the difference between messing with stuff and downright ruining stuff.
If nobody else is interested in that distinction then I guess it's 'Pitchforks Ahoy!' (aka bussiness as usual)
Cheers
Martin

[dode74]

I just wanted to point to the difference between messing with stuff and downright ruining stuff.

There's also "giving the customer what he wants".

[plasmoid]

Yes there is.

[DinoTitanedition]

And who is the customer and what does he want? In my time being a member of this forum I read the same stuff from presumably around 20 people that do not like any kind of change. But I know as many people live wich like the smal changes a lot. So what does the customer want? Who dares to speak for all of us? Whos dares to think he knows it all? Nobody can. Not Cyanide, not the community, simply nobody. In my opinion Cyanide did the game and community good.

[dode74]

And who is the customer and what does he want?

The customer is the blood bowl player and what he wants is options.

[Regash]

Yes, Brets rub some people the wrong way.
And AV8 human catchers isn't everyone's cup of tea.
But as far as I can tell neither those nor the Marketplace or their version of ageing are decisions that **** Things up.

If or if not these things f*ck up the game is not the point, at least not for me.
They are f*cking with the rules, creating some house rules that will confuse and divide the player base.

And yes, I actually think that a player that played for quite a while, earned new skills, became a star and then leaves my team for no reason and with nothing I can do about it does f*ck up my team.

[Digger Goreman]

And who is the customer and what does he want?

The customer is the blood bowl player and what he wants is options.

The customer is the blood bowl player and what he wants is a stable rules set with long considered and statistically defensible, properly tested options.

Baseball is so successful because the rules have been ironclad since 1982 when the designated hitter was introduced (a player's union decision that had nothing to really do with the rules and is still contentious today)... rules change committees haven't bothered to meet in over 20 years....

I suggest sir that, given your tag line, you are less than neutral on the issue....

[Darkson]

And who is the customer and what does he want?

The customer is the blood bowl player and what he wants is options.

The customer is the blood bowl player and what he wants is a stable rules set with long considered and statistically defensible, properly tested options.

Dode's correct on this though - I couldn't care less what rules Cyanide (or Fumbbl or xxx) add, as long as there is the option to play straight-up CRP, and as long as there is the option to use (or not) whatever house rules are in that version of the game. For example, if I thought that their marketplace was a good idea (I don't) but don't like AV8 catchers I'd like the option of being able to use one and not the other.
I played for years in MBBL2, a very house-ruled league based off LRB4 - again, options - but having those available doesn't mean I'd expect everyone to play those rules.

And I don't see what Dode running a 3rd-pary league using the Cyanide tool has to do with anything.

[mawph]

And I don't see what Dode running a 3rd-pary league using the Cyanide tool has to do with anything.

I suspect he was referring to the section which for you reads: "Da Spammer"

[dode74]

The customer is the blood bowl player and what he wants is a stable rules set with long considered and statistically defensible, properly tested options.

I've argued for nothing else at length on these very forums. Thing is, changes (and people seem to want them) need data for them to be considered properly tested. By providing the user with options Cyanide will be able to gather data on all of these options which can then be used to see which are statistically defensible (i.e. balanced) and which are fun (i.e. popular).

Baseball is so successful because the rules have been ironclad since 1982 when the designated hitter was introduced (a player's union decision that had nothing to really do with the rules and is still contentious today)... rules change committees haven't bothered to meet in over 20 years....

This is not baseball. The failures in that analogy are legion.

I suggest sir that, given your tag line, you are less than neutral on the issue....

I suggest, sir, that you are talking out of your arse. I've been very critical of Cyanide when they deserve it, and on their own forums as the moderator of those forums. If you're talking about the "toadie" bit that was put there years ago (I believe by Darkson) as a joke. I've never bothered asking to have it changed simply because such lines don't bother me in any way.