Bretonnian roster... What's the deal?

[Chris]

I'm happy to see new rosters floated about, with interesting ideas (and don't get me wrong, Fend-spam is a decent idea to build a roster on), but this just seems rubbish to me.

Do you think that would be a good roster idea (fend spam) for Nippon? Or the oft suggested Amazon alternative?

[DinoTitanedition]

But even I confess they don't seem to bring anything to the game other than the fluff.

You are probably right on that, but "nothing else than fluff"....this is not an unimportant factor. There is a lot of people playing BB for whom "only the rules" are important. From my point of view, that is okay, but at that point I don`t know why people buy miniatures at all, or are asking for interesting teamnames, when it`s just Team A vs. Team B with a certain ruleset.

For me BB is more - a rounded version of the hobby, wich consists additionaly and vitally of the fluffpart, the painting and the converting. To me just the naked gamemechanics are not enough. An addition to expand the fluff of the BB universe is preferable to me. Not only does it give the scenario (not the gamemechanics) more depth, it also draws more players to my favourite game. I don`t know HOW MANY players I`ve already drawn to game in Germany just by bringing them the cool look and the persiflaging background closer, but I know one thing for sure - it was a LOT of players. This chance is mostly increased by the number of rosters that are offered.

Do you think that would be a good roster idea (fend spam) for Nippon?

Since the Nipponese are famous for their japaneselike background a spam with shadowing for linemen would probably be more in their spirit, as a kind of ninjadept. Profile could be the same as a thrall with an increased price (6/3/3/7 GP). The other position could be a skilled playertype, like Hoshi Komi (8/3/4/7 GA). Would be a fast-but-fragile kind of team. Just a quick raw thought on that, putting them statwise between a regular human and a pro-elf.

[JaM]

I'd look forward to play them. It's something new, I like that.

I just hope they bring out the game with all the teams, I dont like to pay for DLC stuff. I'd rather buy the DVD.

[Fassbinder75]

You are probably right on that, but "nothing else than fluff"....this is not an unimportant factor. There is a lot of people playing BB for whom "only the rules" are important. From my point of view, that is okay, but at that point I don`t know why people buy miniatures at all, or are asking for interesting teamnames, when it`s just Team A vs. Team B with a certain ruleset.

For me BB is more - a rounded version of the hobby, wich consists additionaly and vitally of the fluffpart, the painting and the converting. To me just the naked gamemechanics are not enough. An addition to expand the fluff of the BB universe is preferable to me. Not only does it give the scenario (not the gamemechanics) more depth, it also draws more players to my favourite game. I don`t know HOW MANY players I`ve already drawn to game in Germany just by bringing them the cool look and the persiflaging background closer, but I know one thing for sure - it was a LOT of players. This chance is mostly increased by the number of rosters that are offered.

I can paint well and enjoy the hobby side of the game - but fluff is not a good reason for a roster to exist if it offers nothing mechanically IMO. For me it has to be a combination, with preference to mechanics.

[DinoTitanedition]

Not arguing with ones preferences. But isn`t fluff, especially in this game, the actual reason for it`s existence? There are other "footbalish" games on the market after all, but they don`t seem to pull the same attraction as the game inspired by a mix of Warhammer-American Football-Rugby.

As for the hobbyside, at least from what I´ve seen on your site, it`s easy to say that it is inspiring and creative. How many others are out there on the same level? Is this a minority? Shouldn`t the less present aspect of the hobby be promoted? Wich one IS the less present aspect? The game mechanics? The fluff? The art? The range of miniatures? Questions, questions...

[Fassbinder75]

As for the hobbyside, at least from what I´ve seen on your site, it`s easy to say that it is inspiring and creative. How many others are out there on the same level? Is this a minority? Shouldn`t the less present aspect of the hobby be promoted? Wich one IS the less present aspect? The game mechanics? The fluff? The art? The range of miniatures? Questions, questions...

Thats a fair point. In my part of the world tournaments are game > > > hobby, and there are more competitive players than hobbyists by a mile, which is a shame and I'd really like it to have a stronger painting/modelling focus.

But that very fact is indicative to me that the game has better mechanical longevity. Hobbyists will depart for other systems with manufacturer support, gamers remain because the system's good.

So yeah, we are in the minority - but I paint for my own satisfaction and if anyone is inspired then that is just a bonus.

[DinoTitanedition]

But that very fact is indicative to me that the game has better mechanical longevity. Hobbyists will depart for other systems with manufacturer support, gamers remain because the system's good

I`m not really sure about that. At least I`ve had mixed experiences. The creative, or "hobby-part" always seemed to be what draws people to a game. What you usually hear is "Wow, that looks cool" not "Wow, that`s cool rules". When someone encounters a game for the first time, rulewise interesting highlights can be presented. Yeah, you can have a demogame too, but being someone who visits gaming conventions I can tell from experience, that this method works mostly only with games where the mechanics are not as vast and comlicated as in BB. For experienced TT gamers they are not that comlicated of course. We had people in our club learning the rules just by watching. But bringing someone new to the game is a different story.

At this point I think the addition of the Bretonnian roster is huge help (and the Khorne roster too), because shouldn`t it be also an intention to attract new players as well? Hobby vs. mechanics factor joins in here.

Loosing hobbyists makes the game visually less attractive and that can also cause a deminishing number of players. Yes, if you look at NAF statistics of players that join the organisation, the numbers are climbing, but you can`t tell if those are new players or just veterans that were looking for a constant community (for onlinegaming for example).

Mentioning that, the visual addition of the Bretonnias is a support to the creative side of the game, which I can`t really see in the FUMBBL community, or only on a much smaller scale (EDIT: this is purely focusing on creative aspects, not the addition of rule mechanics). To me, as hobbyist mainly, that makes no big difference if it`s the manufacturer not supporting the BB hobbyside or the major part of the community. One has to thank the many independent manufacturers at that point.


So, after the discussion is starting to split from "what`s the deal with Bretonnian rosters" to "what`s more important to BB", the real question is probably "What does the Bretonnian roster do for the community and how does it affect it?".

[Wifflebat]

At this point I think the addition of the Bretonnian roster is huge help (and the Khorne roster too), because shouldn`t it be also an intention to attract new players as well? Hobby vs. mechanics factor joins in here.

I agree with this--I don't really care if it's Khorne, the Brets, Apes, Savage Halflings, or what. An occasional "new release" with some wide community support will help to keep people interested.

The difficulty is that there are so many factions in the community you can piss off, whether it's about keeping things official (obviously impossible if making changes), satisfying everybody with rules changes, organizational and platform alliances, sticking to established fluff, etc. I've never paid attention to Warhammer fluff at all, so my point of view is pretty liberal in that regard.

Obviously, Cyanide's decision is made to sell games, but someplace in all of this are a bunch of people who are trying to make a good game, and a team that's fun to play, balanced, and so on. I think it can't be anything but good for the game, and I wish them well.

[Wulfyn]

I was honestly hoping for something like
1. Peasants
2. Pilgrims
3. Errants
4. Grail Knight

The Errants and the Knights should have regen to represent the blessing of the lady. Errants to start with no other skills but have access to learn them all apart from mutations. Grail Knights have loner plus cool skills -Blodge etc. Pilgrims have Frenzy. I am sure this is probably too good but i think it would capture the feel of Bretonnians

What you did there is what I call "WarhammerBowl".
Cherrypicking WFB units you like and putting them on a BB pitch for no reason.

If you consider what grail knights and errants are and what they do, they have no reasons to play BB.
They have others things to do, guarding sacred places, going on their quests, etc.

Plasmoid blitzers are not knights that after a long day riding a horse and fighting, decide to play a BB game before supper.
They are professional sport players. That come from the nobility of a feudal society.

In that sense why have peasants at all? Other than being a WFB unit why would nobles put themselves into a team with peasants? In feudal competitions it was exclusively the nobles that were allowed to take part. Wouldn't you rather see differing levels of noble with better stats/skills the higher you got (better blood and all that).

[sann0638]

Mentioning that, the visual addition of the Bretonnias is a support to the creative side of the game, which I can`t really see in the FUMBBL community, or only on a much smaller scale (EDIT: this is purely focusing on creative aspects, not the addition of rule mechanics).

Some of the team logos, sprites (or whatever the pixels are called), player portraits, team fluff on Fumbbl is immense. Others are better than me at providing examples, but there are some amazing ones.

[plasmoid]

Hi Wulfyn,
why peasants?
For the same reason that undead teams employ skellies and zombies rather than just wights, ghouls and mummies.
Or humans use linemen rather than just 0-16 blitzers.
I.e. no real reason. Except balance.

[But the team blurp does try to explain it - arrogant smug nobles draft peasant levy to bolster the team]
Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Well, I'm glad that the team isn't universally disliked. Given the subject matter that's a good result

Chris said:

But even I confess they don't seem to bring anything to the game other than the fluff.

Just for the record, I don't agree
I mean, naturally a 25th team doesn't add anything groundbreakingly new. Only way to do that would be something like add a new skill or a new negatrait. Which in itself has already been done a few times (OFAB, Titchy, Animosity) - doing that would be lazy, IMO, not to mention would annoy the purists.

But the team does offer new options and challenges. Gimped options perhaps (as Fassbinder called them elsewhere) - but new none the less. IMO the team sticks to the the feudal theme and human statbase, offering a running (or potentially) shortpassing team that can reliably move the ball between several non-puny players, but which does not have the staying power or (high strength) hitting power to reliably 8-turn-grind. Instead, the Brets are likely to have to play some proper defense rather than just stalling on their own offense. Positively heroic!

Interesting quirks are:
1. The team features 2 skills not used on any other starting roster. The skills are good enough to be useful - but not good enough to be among the skill picks preferred by most teams - certainly not in those quantities. (Fend and Wrestle).

2. The team's top position is a thrower type/P-access player. And there are 0-4 of them! Unlike the Pact team these are the key players, and will be hogging SPPs and thereby skilling up.

3. One major consideration for the Bret coach is whether to develop a proper thrower. Or possibly whether to go all in, developing a dump-off heavy team. Which would certainly be a novelty.

4. These top positionals are also the only top positionals to not have access to the 2 power categories S and A. That leaves the head coach with a lot of Unique skilling decisions! Not always nice ones. But unique. These Guys will be skilling up. And they start with 2 of the most obvious G-skill choices, so where to go from there?
Is pass block useful (with Catch). Tackle, probably. Shadowing (Ma7). Fend? Kick-off return (due to catch) or sure hands? How about Pro - it is actually quite nice for blocking - and for dauntless. Not to mention nerves of steel, leader, dump-off and the dedicated thrower.

5. With the limited skill selection, Fend may look good. Especially since Linemen start with it so you can Fend spam. If anybody knows coach Niebling then he is a master of using Fend. The Fend roster - or even just the fend linemen are actually a quite nice response to the CPOMB metagame. Certainly the linemen are cheap/plentiful and with just Wrestle will be a decent and TV-affective response to CPOMB on the LOS.

Cheers
Martin

PS 6. - the team can appeal to those who enjoy Brets in warhammer. I find Warhammer Fanboy needlessly derogatory. How about 'gamers'.

[nonumber]

A harmless addition to the game in my view, I can't really think of anything bad to say about them other than they could potentially suffer the same problem as a regular human team; not as good at playing the game as elves, not as good at bashing as Dwarfs/Orcs and not as good at doing a bit of both as Undead. But then again there are challenging teams out there like Khemri and Vamps to give the game some flavour. I imagine there'll be games where mass fend will be infuriating to play against.

I actually think a Bretonnian team would be fun to paint.

I feel a little bit hypocritical because I didn't want the Khorne team to come into the game, for some reason Bret's don't bother me that much.

[J_Bone]

I'm liking the conversation on here much more than what I've seen on Facebook... A lot of good opinions on both sides here. It's interesting to see Rolex & Plasmoid's points of view illustrated so clearly.

I have to say I do agree with Rolex on the "WarhammerBowl" thing... I have never played WFB (I own a few of the nicer minis but have never been that interested in the game that much) and don't know the fluff surrounding the Bretonnians. All I know is that I like the idea of "teutonic" style knights in Blood Bowl and do think it's a nice variation on the human team theme. I like the idea of the obvious hierarchy which I do think is represented fairly well in the starting skills / stats and skill access on the team. I don't think of the linemen as peasants. I think of them as lower-class citizens but linemen all the same. The Yeomen are superior to the linemen but subservient to the Blitzers (or knights) and the Blitzers are the preening, posing, SPP hogging stars.

I also like the starting skills. Having Fend & Wrestle as starting skills IS different to any other team out there and will give them their own individual play style while in my opinion adding to the theme... The stoic, hardy linemen holding off the opposition as the Yeomen tie up and hold down any threats ready for the poncey Blitzers to breeze past and complete their well rehearsed, flashy plays. I like it. And I like it because it isn't trying to shoehorn in any of that Lady of the Lake, Blessings table rolls, his standard bearer gives him +1 agility for the game kind of shenanigans. It just feels to me like a team put together by a bunch of upper-class, toff monarchs.

My biggest problem at the moment is that I'm trying to build a Bretonnian team so that I can try them out and see what they're like but can't find any decent miniatures to convert!

[DinoTitanedition]

I have seen various conversions for Bretonninas, liking the ones with the headswap on the latest human team most. Bit the 3rd edition human team linemen make some good peasants, while there is acouple of nicely convertable plasticminis out there for the knights. The helmets in particular is whar actually makes them pop out on the field. The ones with a heraldic figure on the helmet obviously being blitzers and the yoemen having non of such accessoires.

@sann

Absolutely agree, the logoart and the drawings for the positionals look nice but differ a lot in style. And I have to admit, when I thought about the visual portation I was more thinking about the field and the pixely positionals themselves. For some that might be okay, but as a very visual person (placing myself clearly in the hobbyist corner of the community) the visual presentation simply does matter to me.

Of course, I`m not giving it MORE weight than the ruleworks, but not LESS either. Since I like to play the boardversion as often as possible, I believe the visuals contribute massively to the atmosphere of the game.