A Call for Calm

[Geggster]

That seems extremely simplistic. Communication is repeatedly cited as a core concern NAF needs to improve at.

I can understand Joe making a bad joke, but I don't understand how you and the NAF execs who know these guys sat on the sidelines while the hoax went down and now continue to avoid saying something as simple as: "it was a bad mistake. NAF officials should not make posts which abuse the communities trust." Why is that hard to say? It doesn't throw anyone under the bus, it just reassures us that NAF is not the insular and out of touch organization the hoax has inadvertantly revealed it to be.

.....
this continues to be another case of poor communication and leadership on behalf of NAF.

I think it IS simple. Three UK coaches perpetrated a silly joke and some people were upset. These guys have apologised and accepted that it was a mistake. It appears not everyone has accepted their apology and that is their prerogative.

As a committee member, I agree that it was a mistake and have said they were naive publicly and to them directly.

It is unfortunate that some people gave the rumour extra credit because of Joemanji's NAF position (Purplegoo is England captain for the coming Eurobowl so he also has position of responsibility). For that Joe and the NAF apologise and I believe we won't be seeing any further hoaxes, from anyone with a "hat" anytime soon.

Perhaps I've gone a touch further on this post than the one of the previous page but I still don't see that this as a NAF blunder that can used as evidence of "further poor communication and leadership from the NAF".

I have also posted in the Ausbowl, at the invite of the Australians. Happy for that link to be made (more) public and always happy to entertain questions.

[JT-Y]

The reason all this came about was because someone posted a nonsense rumour from an unreliable source and wanted to be taken seriously.

Relax guys, it's fine. We're all too old for name calling and righteous indignation rarely sits comfortably on anyone.

[GalakStarscraper]

Apologies rob ... I was not even reading this thread since Ausbowl was not down for me. I just now looked at it because I was curious why the thread had hit page 3 if the site was up.

Since this is still on this thread ... I'll put it here for stan, rob and the 3.

Maybe that term means something different here. If you do something that is very poorly in jest and it upsets and lot of people (and it cannot be denied that it did) ... than that is a move that isn't really cool and I would expect to be used especially if at the time it was thought to have been done as a delibrate act of trolling to upset others (which I what I and many others thought). I'm not sure how my role as a moderator changed how the situation appears when I posted that. With this thread we know now that it really was just a joke that turned horribly wrong ... not trolling. So with that ... I gladly will edit my Ausbowl post. At the time ... it seemed to be more a effort to upset folks on purpose so the lanague I used at that time seemed appropriate to the information at hand.

To the extent the language I used to state that offended you stan and rob ... I do apologize since it is clear I offended both of you. If I offend Joemanji or Purplegoo or Indigo I also extend my apologies given seeing their statements on this thread that they really had no idea it would go that badly.

I will edit my posts on Ausbowl to remove the comments. Again .. this is not ego ... at least I don't think its ego. But given that single thread started an entire discussion on Ausbowl about leaving the NAF ... do you really think the language was out of bounds since it seemed it was more than a bad joke at the time.

As for the 2nd point brought up. Yes I moved the thread to the Moderator's Forum. I did not delete it. The thread was causing such a stir ... I honestly thought it was better to just move it out of public site to hopefully let the fires it was causing die down. The response from Ausbowl and the Moderators seemed to be that overall this was as good a call as any. To the extent that that decision upset anyone sorry ... that was one of those calls as a Moderator that is tough to make. Leave it and let others read it when it is causing waves to remove it. I put it in the Moderators section where the other Mods could return the thread if they thought it was out of place.

So rob and stan ... if you feel that speaking that way about a joke that went terribly wrong is out of place for my position ... I apologize to you that you believe I abused my position or allowed my ego to be above my own comments. I honestly did not think denouncing what appears to be a delibrate act to upset others was a form of abuse of my position as Moderator. Now that I know it really was just a bad joke ... I openly apologize to the parties involved and anyone else offended.

And for the record ... count me in the gullible. Because of Joe's position ... I believed the thread was real and not a joke and was answering emails and PMs from several people who came to me looking for more information. Even had a meeting with my business partner to discuss possible future paths we could take to help out the game if it did come into possession of a wealthy player. So yeah ... I reacted because I definitely was one of the folks suckered in. To the extent that I over-reacted ... I do apologize.

Tom

[JT-Y]

[Fassbinder75]

Perception is reality JT-Y. Maybe not yours, but the joke said "NAF is fiddling while Rome is burning" to me (and others it seems) once it became clear that it was BS. That might be entirely incorrect, but once you put stuff out there, you don't get to control the way its interpreted.

[Indigo]

That misconception suffered by a minority was cleared up - or at least an attempt was made to you guys in particular - when it became clear you'd misinterpreted it. I didn't expect that misinterpretation to occur but in hindsight (and discovering ausbowl ) I can sort of see why.

Granted misinterpretation can occur but understanding and explanation after the fact should be enough to clear up earlier confusion. Let's put this all to bed

[Shteve0]

Hmmmm... not really how I see it fellas, but whatever.

I mean, it's not a big deal... I don't think anyone's really all that worked up at this point, which is why the apologies (and calls to move on) feel so safe... But one person here contacted me by PM and I explained my take to them, while another I took the assumptive liberty to respond to on an open forum. Without putting too fine a point on it, it's funny how some here have read moderator comments on a different forum with total clarity, yet totally missed the point when other posts in the same thread have sought to explain what the issue really is, at it's core.

For anyone not polluted already I'm not going to rehash it all here, but (a) I don't think an apology for the thread in question solves everything and (b) I don't think an apology for the thread in question really solves anything. That's not to say that apologies aren't welcome to some; but I'm yet to see anyone push for one, and things seem to have moved on a bit since then. No doubt this raft of apologies is welcome to those who feel hurt by the perpetrators, but let's not kid ourselves; apologies now for a bit of chain pulling is addressing only the symptom, not the cause.

From where I sit, it seems that many people are upset because they see the NAF - and, by extension, the determination of the community's direction - as a closed shop. That's what people talk about when they talk about the "clique" - not some sort of sinister premeditated conspiracy, just an extended direct social circle that is apparently kept in the loop while those elsewhere (members of theoretically equal footing) are kept in the dark. The thread in question pulled that chord... it struck at the tenderness at the heart of the community. Taking the piss out of people because they trusted in the inner sanctum they believed existed at the centre of the BB community - from that same alleged inner sanctum - seemed like a bit of a gutshot that struck at the perceived safety of the forum.

Still, thanks to your own solemn testimony, it's now clear that there's no band of evil ruler space lizards at all, merely a disparate mob of lovable, foolhardy dickheads - but that neither makes a spate of churlish misdemeanour the problem, nor apologies (no matter how earnest and cute) the cure. Some here have claimed to be railing against deeply personal negativity levelled against NAF members. Really? Because some of the time it just seems like any genuinely constructive criticism of the NAF is greeted with the same bile as that one could reasonably expect to be reserved for those with genuine vitriol to peddle. Could those involved in the prank - and the crusade to clean up TFF - be legitimately accused of being just a little bit hypersensitive themselves?

Come on, there are good people on both sides. No, quick correction, there are not two sides at all - we all want the same thing, a co-ordinated and amiable community with a responsive and representative governing body. Let's not allow a scenario to develop whereby people feel they can't express themselves for fear of ridicule or flaming. That's just not cool. We were all new here at some point or other (a handful excepted, who seem to have signed up before the birth of the internet) and I personally still remember what a welcoming place it was when I signed up (and still is, outside of the odd flashpoint).

So perhaps the only commitment we need to ask of each other, and make ourselves, is that we will approach all discussions in good faith. And allow criticism where it is honestly held. What's that quote? "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to my death your right to say it"? Well, I don't think we need to go that far, but perhaps adopting just a little bit from that sentiment would be best for all of us overall.

That's all. Love to your mothers.

[Indigo]

Mate that reads REALLY badly. Like you want to kick the hornet's nest just as it settled down.

This is the only part of your message that is close to the truth

So perhaps the only commitment we need to ask of each other, and make ourselves, is that we will approach all discussions in good faith. And allow criticism where it is honestly held. What's that quote? "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to my death your right to say it"? Well, I don't think we need to go that far, but perhaps adopting just a little bit from that sentiment would be best for all of us overall.

That first sentence is the whole fcking point of it. None of the rest. All this NAF stuff is an example of ONE of the discussions that couldn't be had in good faith. Just one.

As for apologising, you are (again) missing the point. First of all I sent you the 2 foot long PM explaining the course of events and exploring my reasons behind it - including asking you to pass on my apology to the aussies. Now I know ausbowl exists I can see you made only a token effort. As well as that there is my own personal acceptance that others outside the aussies may not have liked it and deserved and apology and finally - the crucial bit you are missing - apologising to the guys that are "the other side of the problem". We'll never get anywhere skirting around the issue, joking about it and soapboxing about it wasn't working so apologies were made and in some cases returned. Case closed, job done.

You're confusing your own personal angst about the NAF and this clique bullsh1t yet again. Maybe I can finally put the nail in the coffin of that particularly stupid concept.

If we are in the NAF clique and this purportedly has ruined the NAF's reputation in fringe/minority communities (in player count terms) then surely we'd not have been "allowed" to post it. The fact that we have, and have gone on record as being sorry for it, is quite clear we're not in someone's pocket. It just wouldn't have happened. Furthermore, you/others make the assertation that we are in this old boy's club clique privy to insider information. That to me smells like a non-falsifiable theory, or in other words

"what evidence would you accept as proof that there is no clique?"

The burden of proof rests with the person making the accusation, not the people being accused, and it's a poor argument indeed if you set up your premise such that there is no possibility of refutation. Lookup "Russell's teapot". I am guilty of having been friends with the current president & treasurer for several years before they took their post and yeah, I played in the same league - as did you I must point out - but that doesn't mean I know what's going on.

Finally, to try to put this ridiculous episode to bed again... No one took the piss out of anyone. That was very clear and I made it clear to you in the PM. You appear to have missed that. Least of all the aussie chaps. It was a non-specific joke and it's only because some people took it too seriously that they needed direct contact to put things right.

So please, let's just let this go. If you continue to have problems with the whole episode and truly want to discuss it more, yet at the same time avoid newbies seeing arguments, this kind of episode is counterproductive surely? PM me, and/or the other guys too. Some small degree of progress has been made and you really are coming over like you're fanning the flames for some reason.

[robsoma]

@ Galak - cheers tom. much appreciate the apology.

[RogueThirteen]

In the spirit of Blood Bowlers "togetherness," let's celebrate by creating a new team that celebrates cohesion: The Jounrneymen Union

*Note:
We players (all of us) are the journeymen
GW, with its cavalier and dismissive attitudes toward the game, are the source of powerlessness and "mistreatment"


Annoyed by the powerlessness and mistreatment that are all too commonly experienced by the average journeymen*, some of these bright-eyed hopefuls ban together and take to the pitch in player-owned, player-run unions. These players who so desperately love the sport put their differences aside so that they can take to the field far more often than the rare (and often body-wrecking) opportunities than a journeymen could often find.

Team Roster:
Re-Rolls: 60,000
Apothecary
Player Positions:
0-16 Human Lineman, Solidarity
0-1 Amazon Linewoman, Solidarity
0-1 Norse Lineman, Solidarity
0-1 Orc Lineman, Solidarity
0-1 Skaven Lineman, Solidarity
0-1 Dwarf Lineman, Solidarity
0-1 Beastmen, Solidarity
0-1 Hobgoblin, Solidarity
0-1 Skink, Solidarity
0-1 Goblin, Solidarity
0-1 Halfling, Solidarity
0-1 Zombie, Solidarity
0-1 Skeleton, Solidarity
0-1 Snotling, Solidarity
0-1 Linefrog, Solidarity
0-1 Pitfighter, Solidarity
0-1 Ex-Mercenary Big Guy [as normal human ogre]

Solidarity: Whenever a player rerolls a Catch, Pass, Pick-Up, Dodge, Leap, Loner, or Landing roll, it adds +1 to the roll for each adjacent teammate with Solidarity.

[Shteve0]

Indi, I think you're reading something in my post that isn't there. I said that the clique doesn't exist. I'm well aware of that. But there still seems to be this idea that the joke is the root of the be all and end all, when it clearly wouldn't have taken off if there weren't an underlying issue. That underlying issue is itself a misunderstanding that I've tried to identify and explain.

What I was trying to say in a lighthearted way is that the apologies are all well and good, but the fact that the underlying issue - part of which is hypersensitivity whenever anyone raises the word 'clique' or offers even mild criticism of the NAF - is not resolved by kidding ourselves that the joke was the root cause of the strife.

I don't have an agenda, mate. I'm dedicating a lot of energy right now working with other commissioners in the area to improve BB networking here in NZ. We have a bit of a structure vacuum here as the NAF isn't really relevant to the player base, so I've been explaining that in relevant threads along the way. In here, I'm just trying to offer an explanation for why I think people were upset in the first place and why this thread probably hasn't resolved it so far. If you don't agree with that take, that's fine, it's not a big deal.

[robsoma]

For once I actually 100% agree with u shteve0

[nonumber]

I think now that the apologies are in this whole situation needs to be dropped. Geggster's point about remembering scenarios like this for future reference isn't a bad idea either.

Talk Fantasy Football seems to degrade into these situations on a continuous basis now. I don't agree that people don't have the right to be offended just because Steven Fry said it. But I also think an apology should always, always be enough. They are difficult to summon and take a bit of balls so I have an issue with people who can't accept them.

People, we play a board game. Let's remember that. 5 out of 7 days we work hard, most of the rest of our free time is spent pacifying the loved ones we leave to play a tourney every other month. Blood Bowl should be fun- playing it, planning it, discussing it... the vast majority of the rest of our time is spent on things that are far too much like hard work. And there's no telling when the wheels really are gonna come off this thing and we roll our last block dice. So let's enjoy it while it's here. Let's be friends.

If I could play a Blood Bowl tournament every weekend, I could. It gives me a small slice of peace and enjoyment in my life, and even when I've spent my weekend failing armour rolls and GFI's I come out planning the next one. I'm not longer at University with barely any commitments and regular injections of free money. I have a mortgage, a full time job, and I'm about to trade my girlfriend for a wife. I'm living in fear of the first tourney I have to miss due to personal reasons... I know it's around the corner... I just don't know which one!

That makes every minute I get to spend actually playing the game or getting my team ready all the more special. Sure I could play Cyanide, and I'll probably resort to that. But it doesn't beat the real thing. And what makes the real thing is the people that come together to share a common interest. Not bitch at each other or behind each other's back about something they said somewhere that offended them.

TFF needs to be more pictures of insanely cocked dice and tales of bull**** last turn touchdowns (for and against) and a little less "my world is turning upside down and YOU'RE TO BLAME!!!!"

[sann0638]

<sobs>

But actually, awesome post nonumber.

[Loki]

It is great to see some adult discussion on here and I would like to take up a couple of the points raised in Shteve0’s and nonumbers posts.

I agree with both these posts and I hope that nonumbers vision of TFF as a fun, community gratifying place is the way that it all turns out.

However, I don’t think we can just disregard the valid point that Shteve0 has made; which is, that despite what may be factual there is in some quarters a perception that there is a ‘clique’ within the community and that both sides of this perception have not always handled discussions (with the benefit of hindsight) in the best way possible. I would hope that we are all reasonably happy to admit that there is not some shadowy inner circle bent on world domination of the Bloodbowl community. I also don’t think that it is incorrect to point out from my personal experience that there is a hardcore of committed gamers who love and promote the game but to the ‘less professional’(such as myself) tournament attendee do look like quite a 'self-contained' set. Bottom line, which ever camp/clique/majority/minority/faction/nationality/mind set/none of the above (delete as appropriate) I think everyone has a similar goal they want Bloodbowl community to grow and be a place where they can have fun.

I think that part of the reason last week’s joke fell so flat is that many people recognise that this is both an exciting and worrying time in Bloodbowls evolution/life; as nonumber alluded to, none of us really know what is going to happen from an official point of view, which could mean a new lease of life or possibly slow death (or both) for the game. People are desperate for news and reassurance.

I would love to see everyone leave their ego’s at the door and muck-in to make the whole Bloodbowl community work. We have an individual and corporate responsibility, if we want to see this work for everyone.

I’m not trying to make sound cheesy but – Let’s try and make this work


[Edit - for spelling]