BB Mag #6

[Milo]

Weeks later Milo is beratting me for contributing nothing but complaining about the BBRC and Fanatic and through my charm I actually win him over to support the ogre team.

I thought I won you over? =) More accurate, I think would be that we simply both agreed it wasn't acceptable as is.

Personally, I'd like to see the ogre team be like an old 2nd edition team. (IE Has all the positions Thrower, Catcher, Blocker, Blitzer, Lineman) Hah! Try to get that past the BBRC wall!

I think you're mis-remembering 2nd Edition. There were only Ogre Blockers and Blitzers, nothing else. (Although they were allowed to take some goblins or humans to fill out the roster.)

Milo

[Skummy]

IMHO the last thing Skaven need is a Rat Ogre, but that's another discussion.

[Ghost of Pariah]

I didn't mean the 2nd edition ogre team. Reread it. I just said "an old 2nd edition team" The basic teams were all pretty much the same position wise. I'd like to see the ogres be something like that. Cuz how funny would an AG 1 Ogre thrower with Strong Arm be?

Or an AG 2 Ogre catcher with break tackle!

Can't you see it? The catcher breaks through 3 tackle zones and gets open, the thrower steps right, around the human blitzer, aims, throws a short pass, (rerolls the fumble!) and let's abeautiful spiral go! The Ogre catcher looks up just as the ball bounces off his helmet! THUNK!

[Milo]

But this is not the main point of the discussion - we shall see how it ends up (probably with the mag version becoming official...).

Sad but true. I find it odd that we had a team that a majority of us liked until we offered it to the BBRC. Suddenly things needed changing. Why? (IMO for giving credit when the team does become official, but I'm a synical misanthropic sonuvabitch.) I guess I did ask for it.

To be fair, Pariah, I expressed reservations about the 4ST Ogre Linemen well before you offered it to the BBRC. I was on that thread early in its development, but I didn't want to stomp on your new idea just because I didn't like it. That said, your team was in development while the BBMag 6 team was already preparing for print. I was aware of that, and aware how different your version was, but it's generally accepted that the BBRC members shouldn't talk about stuff until it's actually printed if possible. Once it hit print, I joined the discussion to try to find a compromise.

Milo

[Ghost of Pariah]

How does that change what i said? I said a "majority" agreed upon and that the BBRC wouldn't look at it until it was done their way...a minority controlled the roster.

[Mirascael]

Actually I'd like to see the ogre team cause 3 or 4 casualties a game but maybe only .5 or .3 TD's a game.

That's a point I agree with you. Actually, they must have the capability to produce outstanding performances as far as casualities are concerned. Nevertheless, this should be the exception. To acquire this, Zombie's suggestion about MB and BG for everyone is the best way to go. The team would utterly fail most of the times, but the lucky occasional massacre would compensate for the usual everyday sufferings. Ogres teams should produce extremely volatile scores regarding their casuality output, the default being lame, of course.

[Skummy]

What I *don't* want to see is a team that breaks 7 armor 58.3% of the time. Add in Piling On, and you've got a casualty on roughly 25% of 7 armor knockdowns, using only 2 skills. Since you can get this on most of your team, I think MB on a 5 ST "vanilla" character is way out of line.

[Ghost of Pariah]

I tend to agree, and I'd love it if the ogres went up against some woodies, halflings and gobbos before it gets hammered by Chaos Pact, Khemri and Old World but I have no control over that.

I do think that you shouldn't get too jumpy about them busting up low AV teams. With the amount of RS and BH on this team they are going to be hole galore for the low AV, high AG teams to maneuer in.

[DoubleSkulls]

What I *don't* want to see is a team that breaks 7 armor 58.3% of the time. Add in Piling On, and you've got a casualty on roughly 25% of 7 armor knockdowns, using only 2 skills. Since you can get this on most of your team, I think MB on a 5 ST "vanilla" character is way out of line.

Really Stupid does a lot to prevent this becoming a major problem. You've got a good chance of:

• Losing your TZ so your target wanders off
• Not being able to make the block
• Not being able to stand up
• Wasting a blitz

I don't think this will be anything like as dangerous as the current Khemri lineup.

[Skummy]

I suppose playtesting will tell. Until we get actual experience playing this team the rest is conjecture. I look forward to hearing how people are progressing with this roster, and hope I can try a few out myself.

[GalakStarscraper]

How does that change what i said? I said a "majority" agreed upon and that the BBRC wouldn't look at it until it was done their way...a minority controlled the roster.

Pariah, to be 100% fair ... you can never blame the BBRC for what appears in BB Mag. JJ and Andy have sole control over BB Mag and don't really accept BBRC review or editing of the stuff that shows up in BB Mag. All Chet, Milo, Dean, JKL, and Babs can do is clean up the messes that those 2 make in the mag.

So if you want to throw stones ... aim for the right targets. The coach piece of the BBRC had zero to do with the BB Mag #6 Ogre roster.

Galak

[Ghost of Pariah]

That's not what I said, is it? The comment I made was that a large majority here was happy with the roster but for the BBRC to take a look at it it had to be altered to suit the tatses of 2 people. No where did I mention the BBRC making the Fanatic roster.

And as for throwing stones, I believe it was Milo who who told me I am a "son of a bitch" and said I don't do anything but complain. I take offense to his statement of, "I think would be that we simply both agreed it wasn't acceptable as is." Which is simply not true, at all. he makes it sound as if he and I were discussing how unacceptable the Mag version was and we decided to come up with something new. Bullshit. The way it happened was that we (TBB) worked hard on the roster. The BBRC poo-pooed it and wouldn't consider anything from commoners' hands. later on, I made joke about the BBRC being salesmen and Milo was offended, called me a rude name said I contribute nothing, I told him to quit throwing mud and help us change a roster that he (ambiguously) claimed was broken. He wouldn't consider it unless certain things were changed to please what he felt would be JJ's preferences. We say fine, if it means BBRC support. Changes get made. Milo is (ambiguously) supporting our roster. Re-enter Chet, who previously said that the BB Mag roster was "GREAT"and that the TBB was redundant, and he stonewalls unless we do things his way too. More changes for the support of Chet and his ego. Fast forward a bit to now, I make a comment that I agree with MESTARI (who said it first but gets none of the shit!!!!!!!!!!!) that the BB MAG version will probably end up being the official one and suddenly I'm starting trouble again well bullshit. Yes, I believe that if anything with "our" roster happens it will be called "Chet's Ogre team" or the "BBRC Ogre Team". Am I not allowed to say that? If not then why is Mestari allowed to express his opinion?

I'm so freakin sick of being the "bad guy." What did I do? Did I hurt Milo's feelings? Aw, too bad. You think I like the name calling that he and Chet give me simply because I say JJ and Andy are on crack? This is crap. I didn't "throw any stones" I agreed with Mestari, why don't you go scold him? Ever think about scolding the BBRC member for calling me a "son of bitch"? No, but as soon as I say, "the Mag version will be official roster" I'm throwing stones. Bullshit. Not this crap again.

[Ghost of Pariah]

And BTW Milo, it's funny, I've been all over that ogre thread and I can't seem to find your "early contributions" The earliest one I can find is around page 10 or 11 (before the release of the team) where you tell us the way to go would be 8 Ogres and the rest of the team little goblins or something...hmnn, why would you say that, I wonder? Also if you actually were on that thread early on you would have read the several, multiple, plethora of comments made by those of us who had already seen the roster. Not 100% sure but I think I said so in the opening post! We knew what we were doing and why we were doing it if you had actually read it maybe you would have known that.

[Munkey]

In Milo's defence I think he has made a fair contribution to the team as it now stands, I can't comment on the old thread or the early stages of this one though as I joined this thread late.

I think most of the BBRC are in the unfortunate position of knowing what JJ will (and more importantly will not) accept on an Ogre team and having to break that news to the rest of us whether we like it or not.

Ultimately JJ and AH have veto over what becomes official, so to that extent we have to play by their rules.

I do agree though that they should start listening to their players more, after all we are all out here supporting the game so our opinions should count for something. Perhaps we all need to petition the fantic email to get our opinions across.

[Darkson]

2) Nothing anyone could ever say would make me agree to an ST only player when there are only 5 ST skills available through normal skill rolls (4 if the player still has MB). As Zombie loves to say, BB does not need more excpetions and this is a pretty big one on the grand scale, and I completely dimiss the comment of they'll never get there ... the FUMBBL league has a 6 skill Troll, and the Blockers are trolls with +1 MA. So, I'm willing to be flexible on the MB, Big Guy, and reroll cost points, but there is no way anyone could convince me that an ST only player makes sense with the current ST skill list.

Galak, didn't you say on another thread (and if it was someone else I apologise now) that as FUMBLL didn't use the handicap table they shouldn't be considered as playtest data? How many games would this guy have missed, or been ganged up on cos the team was short handed? Just a thought.