Bretonnian roster... What's the deal?

[MattDakka]

Hi plasmoid!

I didn't say that it would be a smart choice. Or that anyone would.
I said that if you ever wanted to experiment with skills, then the Bretonnian Blitzer makes several of them as viable or appealing as they're ever gonna get.

The Blitzer lacks Strength access, no funky build is going to change this lack.

Fend - due to already being on a Fend team. Fend is best when spammed.

Yes but still not a great skill at low TV, and when the real bash kicks in Fend won't help a lot anyway (I tried Fend spam on Dwarfs, with AV 9, so higher AV and it's not TV-efficient).

Frenzy - has block, dauntless, is fast, and is team up with S (Guard) players.

Frenzy is a good-bad skill, not one of the first ones I'd take on a ST 3 AG 3 Blitzer for sure if he had Strength access.

Kick-Off return - has catch.

Good skill on slow bash teams, but a bit meh on one of the best players of the team.

Pass Block - has catch.

One of the worst skills in Blood Bowl on one of the best players of the team? Really?!

Pro - does a lot of different Things. Certainly throws a lot of Blocks.

Still not better than Guard and Mighty Blow.

Shadowing - High MA makes it Work. ST3, AV8 and Block makes him less likely to get pulped if he pins someone.

AV 8 is not impenetrable and without Side Step and Dodge a Shadowing player is bound to be blocked away easily.

Sure Hands and Tackle or also nice for your primary blitzing ball mover.

Solid core skills here, still Sure Hands is a bit of a waste of somebody who should be hitting opponent players, also, if you use a Dauntless player as ball carrier you are quite wasting Dauntless, since it's not wise to use him to block/blitz, he could lose the ball.

Nerves of Steel is not a bad pick for a player who starts with Catch.

NoS is one of those skills you don't want to get but you may find useful on AG 4 Elf Catchers. Still, not a skill I take on my Elves nor I'd take on an AG 3 player. If you are using NoS this means you are marked by a player, so probably you are going to dodge (or pass) after the catch, AG 3 is not that reliable for this kind of plays.

And Dump Off is viable which actually fields multiple Catch players. Catch players with access to NOS.

Dump Off is situational and rarely used by AG 4 Runners, let alone an AG 3 player, the chance of fumble is too high.

[odinsgrandson]

Overall, I feel that Blood Bowl has a trouble having as many cool thowing/catching builds as it has blocking builds.

There are loads of cool options if you want a bashy team, but if you want to play a passing team, you're options are a lot slimmer (and most of them are Elves).

I'd like to try and make these Brettonians into a cool not-elf passing team. Right now, they look like Vampire-lite (your team has four knights that really want to fill every positional role- and a bunch of road bumps).

I'd like to try that out, and I prefer that new teams don't just add one more bashy team to the game.


Oh, and my roster will have Knights, Yoemen and Peasants.

[Decker_cky]

Overall, I feel that Blood Bowl has a trouble having as many cool thowing/catching builds as it has blocking builds.

There are loads of cool options if you want a bashy team, but if you want to play a passing team, you're options are a lot slimmer (and most of them are Elves).

I'd like to try and make these Brettonians into a cool not-elf passing team. Right now, they look like Vampire-lite (your team has four knights that really want to fill every positional role- and a bunch of road bumps).

I'd like to try that out, and I prefer that new teams don't just add one more bashy team to the game.


Oh, and my roster will have Knights, Yoemen and Peasants.

Human roster with the improved AV8 catcher is a decent passing team if you want to go that route. The individual rolls are more risky, but you have catchers that should stay on the pitch.

[MattDakka]

I'd like to try and make these Brettonians into a cool not-elf passing team. .

With AG 3 and 2?!
Good luck!

[legowarrior]

Its one of the game design I feel is flawed in blood bowl. Creating a option that isnt an option because it is so subpar.

[harvestmouse]

The problem is that playing a throwing game with elven linemen is better than playing a throwing game with human thrower and catchers.

In 2nd edition they were equal, which was generally the idea with 3rd onwards. The throwing game is a little bit weak as it is, and add to that throwing with AG3 is weaker still.

I think it would be better to bring throwing (at least) away from AG again. Catching isn't really that necessary as catch is pretty good for catching. Duke Tyrion also suggested combing pass and safe throw, which I think is a pretty good idea.

[straume]

Still not better than Guard and Mighty Blow.

I took the essence of your post there MattDakka. I don`t think anyone disagrees with this. I guess the point is that adding another 7-3-3-8 Block GS piece to the game wouldn`t add anything interesting. Why add Bretonnians with a new Human blitzer? Boring.

If you are making a new human team you need to be a bit creative, otherwise it is absolute pointless. Plasmoid has been creative, and (as always will be) someone likes it, someone hates it, and most doesn`t care that much.

[harvestmouse]

Still not better than Guard and Mighty Blow.

I took the essence of your post there MattDakka. I don`t think anyone disagrees with this. I guess the point is that adding another 7-3-3-8 Block GS piece to the game wouldn`t add anything interesting. Why add Bretonnians with a new Human blitzer? Boring.

If you are making a new human team you need to be a bit creative, otherwise it is absolute pointless. Plasmoid has been creative, and (as always will be) someone likes it, someone hates it, and most doesn`t care that much.

Then don't add a new human team. A human blitzer is a human blitzer, no matter what his nation. I don't agree with moving away from the original roster premise. I don't agree that adding a roster with a positional that is similar to another one or even the same is boring and I don't agree that you should change an established positional. It dilutes the integrity.

The current human team would have sufficed as a Bretonnian team. However even if you made a human team that dropped say..........thrower and catchers for 2 runners, I find that incredibly interesting. Even limiting the positionals you take makes for a new playing experience.

[plasmoid]

Hi Matt and HarvestMouse,
@Harvestmouse:

A human blitzer is a human blitzer, no matter what his nation

Amazon blitzers and Norse blitzers show that variation is possible.

@Matt:
I agree that none of the choices live up to mighty blow/Guard. Or indeed any of the most powerful/TV-efficient skills: Blodge, CPOMB, Guard.
So the team isn't perfectly suited for TV-matched environments. Which admittedly makes it ironic that Cyanide have picked it up.
But in any environment where TV efficiency is less of an issue - because you won't get matched by TV, and opponents don't have 100 games to get their lean team juuuust right - they stand a much better chance.

So, again, my point wasn't that the skills mentioned give the powerskills a run for their Money. My point was (as stated) that on the Bret team these skills are as appealing as they are ever going to get.

Cheers
Martin

(PS - I think that Fend is a good skill right out of the gates with good positioning. But I assume we'll just have to disagree on that).

[harvestmouse]

Sure, they do and I don't think anybody has complained with your added options (dauntless and catch). They don't come with P access and lose S access though and they do come with block. Those are the 2 main criteria of a blitzer.

The other is an extra MA or in Skaven more armour so the same MA and extra AV. Norse and Zons didn't follow this criteria for some unknown reason. Especially as being cheap is a major problem with both rosters.

As for their distinct ethnic trait (block/dodge) both these cultures are well removed from the central population. Where as Brets are arguably living around and with generic humans. That said, again I don't have a problem with your stars having dauntless or stand firm, that fits a national trait.

Norse and Zons are damn right weird though. If you polled the rosters on 'Are they a good design?' then a lot would say no. I think in hindsight the block/dodge cookie cutter build was a bad idea. However it did give us the cookie cutter design roster and Khorne it was definitely the right option to go frenzy cookie cutter.

Bad rosters really they don't meld well with the others at any TV, and the lrb 5 onwards job done on Norse is just horrid in my opinion. It plays better sure, but fluffwise it's a butcher job.

[dode74]

They don't come with P access and lose S access though and they do come with block. Those are the 2 main criteria of a blitzer.

There's a whole bunch of elven teams which would disagree. And yes, I can use other races than human because you also brought up Skaven.

[MattDakka]

Still not better than Guard and Mighty Blow.

I took the essence of your post there MattDakka. I don`t think anyone disagrees with this. I guess the point is that adding another 7-3-3-8 Block GS piece to the game wouldn`t add anything interesting. Why add Bretonnians with a new Human blitzer? Boring.

This "Human" Blitzer has Dauntless so he's different from the normal Human Blitzers.
According to fluff Bretonnian Knights are better than the normal men, they can be even blessed by the Lady of the Lake (Regeneration maybe, to represent the magic save throw they had in WHFB).
A Bretonnian Knight without Strength access and maybe Animosity (to represent him refusing to give the ball to a peasant during the match) it doesn't represent well the fluff in my opinion.
I have no problem with a sub-par team, sub-par skills, sub-par Blitzers but please, don't call the team Bretonnians.
The roster, like the DoK roster, doesn't represent well the fluff.

[spubbbba]

Norse and Zons are damn right weird though. If you polled the rosters on 'Are they a good design?' then a lot would say no. I think in hindsight the block/dodge cookie cutter build was a bad idea. However it did give us the cookie cutter design roster and Khorne it was definitely the right option to go frenzy cookie cutter.

I think the lack of variety in stats is a big reason why I actively dislike both the Khorne and Bretonnian roster so much. Both teams are far too close to the basic stats (6/3/3/8) of the human lineman and to each other.

Khorne have just the bloodletter losing AV7 though do have the Bloodthirster.
Bretonnians have +MA on their knights and -AG and AV on the linemen.

But only amazons have less variety in their stats between the normal players (in my opinion the worst designed of the 24 "official" teams).

[harvestmouse]

They don't come with P access and lose S access though and they do come with block. Those are the 2 main criteria of a blitzer.

There's a whole bunch of elven teams which would disagree. And yes, I can use other races than human because you also brought up Skaven.

That's a fair point. I think we can describe that as an elven trait. They are more finesse and less bashy, but your point is valid. They do however meet all the other criteria. Bar the suggested change of block to fend! They also are uniform in every case. Extra MA and block. The pro elf has MA and AV, which brings him into line with other types of elven blitzers, but not with his team.

I think this was one of the first teams that started to move away from traditional roster building. We can explain this with regular pro elves who aren't stated funded cannot afford the armour of state elven teams (High/Dark) and must fund themselves by playing on the road. However the teams can afford the better armour for blitzer positional.

[Darkson]

and the lrb 5 onwards job done on Norse is just horrid in my opinion. It plays better sure, but fluffwise it's a butcher job.

Though closer to the original 3rd ed Norse fluff....