BB Mag #6

[Mestari]

How's that for a tournament price - a full Ogre team!

What sucks is that they won't probably fit too well together with the 2nd edition ogres, so you could hardly use them as substitutes...

[BigD]

Hmmmmmmm £106 is definitely getting up there alright. Didn't realise it was quite that bad. Might have to rethink it at the weekend but we'll see what the figures look like up front first right? But like they say, a fool and his money are easily parted. At the moment I'm a fool. Gotta have them though. Whether you play them is another story. But for the collector you really do need to grab them now. Afterall, if they don't make it beyond Experimental and get ditched then GW of course are going to get rid of the figures pretty quickly anyway. It just makes good Business Sense. And using them as Star Players? Nah! Just wouldn't do that. The purist in me says 'BUY THE STAR PLAYER OGRES!!! - THATS WHAT THEY'RE THERE FOR!'

BigD

[Ghost of Pariah]

Thads...

Vyv rulez!

Hmmn, maybe we have uncovered the reason the Mag6 team is so good?

[GalakStarscraper]

Unfortunately at the moment I cannot kick-start testing with my own preferred solution (just a friendly note about the method of trying to cut debate), but I definitely think this version to be better than Galak's suggestion and to have more chances of making it to print.

Look Mestari, I'm not trying to undercut your points, but we have equal arguments on the isle for several topics equally.

1) Blocker should have Big Guy or not have it
2) Blocker should have Gen/ST access or just ST access
3) Blocker should have Mighty Blow or not have Mighty Blow
4) Rerolls should cost 70k, 80k, or 90k

In a nutshell these are the 4 bones of contention. However, debate seems to be all over on these 4 bones ... and you've already got 4 leagues agreeing to test the Big Guy, Gen/ST, Mighty Blow, 70k version of the bones AND 2 BBRC members have approved that roster for testing which DEFINITELY argues against your statement "more chances of making it to print" which I'm not sure what you based it on at all other than your own personal like of your mix.

My 2nd choice mix of the 4 bones would be: No Big Guy, Gen/ST, no Mighty Blow, 80k reroll. But to be very very honest, its a long long distance 2nd.

Bottom line for me on the 4 Bones:

1) The Ogres are supposed to be just completely horrible as a team even the team members are so bad that they cannot remember what team they play for. To me the best way to reinforce this is to have Big Guy on the Blockers to show that even Ogres on an Ogre team hands down just suck. IE ... this one is fluff driven for me.

2) ST only access bites ... there just ARE NOT enough skills. If the Ogre has Mighty Blow and rolls only normal rolls, then there are only FOUR!!! skills for him to take. Even with MB removed, you have 5 skills ... that's a joke and not one I feel we should have to write special rules for to handle. And somehow I really don't like the development of a Blocker when the only skills he's looking at are Piling On, Multiple Block, Break Tackle, and Guard. In terms of things I'm will to negoiate on for this team this is NOT one of them whatsoever. Every player in the game (including Stunties) have 7 skills they can access with just normal skills. I just refuse to acknowledge the exception this causes. In the MBBL2, I have ST only players, but we added Juggernaut, Push, and Pitch Player so that we didn't need special rules. Bottom line of all the bones of contention on the team, I really wish everyone would just drop the ST only access on the Ogres ... its is a MASSIVE exception that BB just doesn't need to deal with just to have an Ogre lineman in BB.

3) Mighty Blow on the Ogres. Currently every ST 5 player in BB has Mighty Blow. HOWEVER, I'll readily admit that if testing shows this team putting up numbers significantly high in the CAS count stat, I'll be the first person to agree that the Blockers should lose Mighty Blow. In the MBBL, the Dwarves have an average CAS count of 2.76 per a game over 30 games .... the Khemri is in right now at 3.25. If the Ogre team exceeds 4 with testing, I'll readily agree to removing Mighty Blow.

4) My support of the 70k rerolls comes from the fact that I've had 100k+ costing player teams in the MBBL2 for almost 2 years now and I've seen how they develop. When your lineman cost 100k, you end up burning a lot of resources on the players. This team is NEVER going to start with more than 1 reroll. And at 140k each with 100k lineman, its not a team that is going to be accumulating a lot of rerolls either. This is another point, I'm very flexible on ... if the testing shows that after 6 or 7 games the average Ogre team has been able to get up to 3 rerolls, I'll be more than interested in hearing arguments for 80 and 90k since the Mixed Race teams are currently at those levels. But as long as the Blocker has Big Guy, I see no damage done by 70k rerolls for the 8 better players on the team.

Mestari, if you want to give your detail explaination for the 4 bones, I'm interested to here it. But I got 2 BBRC members to green light the roster the MBBL is using which was good enough for me with leagues like the ECBBL, SVBBL ,and EAGBBL in agreement as well to start testing them as well.

Galak

[Mestari]

Mestari, if you want to give your detail explaination for the 4 bones, I'm interested to here it.

More than happy to do so. I haven't carved my support for the team I'm currently supporting to stone. I do yield when overwhelming support for the other option is apparent (cf. the vampire neg-trait discussion), but I still can't see how your version is definitely going to be favoured over the one I'm supporting.

1) Blocker should have Big Guy or not have it
4) Rerolls should cost 70k, 80k, or 90k

Ok, the points 1 and 4 go definitely hand in hand. If the blockers have BG, then RR cost should be lower and vice versa. If more of the team can use them, they should cost more as they are much more useful. If a smaller portion of the team can use them, they are less useful and thus should cost (and affect TR) less. Even though I agree that the team should suck, I feel that the use of rerolls should not be banned from the majority of the team. The "sucking" effect should be achieved my other means - mainly Really Stupid and by restricting the blockers in other ways.
Also, I'm inclined to guess that the majority of the BBRC would support the standpoint that most of the team should be able to use team rerolls. The reason why I said this would have better chances of making it to the print - objectively speaking this standpoint smells more "official" than yours. But this is not the main point of the discussion - we shall see how it ends up (probably with the mag version becoming official...).

2) Blocker should have Gen/ST access or just ST access
3) Blocker should have Mighty Blow or not have Mighty Blow

I don't buy your "massive exception"-argument on the ST-skill access onbly due to the fact that the situation of running out of skills would hardly ever arise. ST-skills only player would rather be different in a good sense, restricting exactly the aspect of the game that makes players too good: skill development. Without gen-skill access no ogre blocker would become a true star - they'd simply stay as slumbering brutes, which is what I believe they should be. Giving them gen-access is not the end of the world, however.

However, if they're made better players by vastly increasing their development potential by giving them general skill access, they should at least lose MB. Granted, the effect that this has is slightly reduced if they're given BG, but that is something I hardly see as an option.

I could live with your 2nd option too as it only adds the gen-skill access, but I'm still standing behind the version I supported earlier. Matter of preference with all the points, I guess.

We'll see how it turns out.

[Ghost of Pariah]

But this is not the main point of the discussion - we shall see how it ends up (probably with the mag version becoming official...).

Sad but true. I find it odd that we had a team that a majority of us liked until we offered it to the BBRC. Suddenly things needed changing. Why? (IMO for giving credit when the team does become official, but I'm a synical misanthropic sonuvabitch.) I guess I did ask for it.

Without gen-skill access no ogre blocker would become a true star - they'd simply stay as slumbering brutes, which is what I believe they should be. Giving them gen-access is not the end of the world, however. However, if they're made better players by vastly increasing their development potential by giving them general skill access, they should at least lose MB.

I agree with Mestari 100% once again. The current version is worse than the first TBB team but I can live with it. Either is still better than the one that will be voted official.

[GalakStarscraper]

Without gen-skill access no ogre blocker would become a true star - they'd simply stay as slumbering brutes, which is what I believe they should be. Giving them gen-access is not the end of the world, however. However, if they're made better players by vastly increasing their development potential by giving them general skill access, they should at least lose MB.

I agree with Mestari 100% once again. The current version is worse than the first TBB team but I can live with it. Either is still better than the one that will be voted official.

Two things:

1) If the Ogre team racks up high CAS numbers from testing (greater than the Khemri's 3.25 a game), I'll be the first in line to suggest removing MB from them and dropping their price to 90k.

2) Nothing anyone could ever say would make me agree to an ST only player when there are only 5 ST skills available through normal skill rolls (4 if the player still has MB). As Zombie loves to say, BB does not need more excpetions and this is a pretty big one on the grand scale, and I completely dimiss the comment of they'll never get there ... the FUMBBL league has a 6 skill Troll, and the Blockers are trolls with +1 MA. So, I'm willing to be flexible on the MB, Big Guy, and reroll cost points, but there is no way anyone could convince me that an ST only player makes sense with the current ST skill list.

Galak

[Skummy]

Galak: 1) If the Ogre team racks up high CAS numbers from testing (greater than the Khemri's 3.25 a game), I'll be the first in line to suggest removing MB from them and dropping their price to 90k.

I'm afraid I don't agree. If Ogre teams are causing an average of 3.25 casualties a game, then they're way too good. Khemri are on the high end of the casualty scale, and I'm worried that the introduction of two big casualty causing teams is going to take a lot of 7 armor teams down a few pegs. I'd like to see Ogre teams causing 2.0 or fewer casualties a game.

[Sputnik]

Nothing anyone could ever say would make me agree to an ST only player when there are only 5 ST skills available through normal skill rolls (4 if the player still has MB)

I will give it a try: stunties (say for example skinks) have only access to AG skills. Not much choice there as well. And Lizzies need to develop their skinks differently way more than the ogres would need to. It's a blocker, after all. Which skill do black orcs (as a classic blocker) choose from the general skill list?? Kick? Dauntless? No, it's block, and to deny this for the ogre blocker was the idea behind it. So the "exception" for only access to one skill list is already there...

How many skills do ogres get in an official team?? Two or three, that's it. If you are unlucky, no doubles, no stat increase. I don't know of any ogre with five skills although they may play in a team for more than 50 games...

Sputnik

[GalakStarscraper]

I'd like to see Ogre teams causing 2.0 or fewer casualties a game.

But the Norse teams in my league average 2.4 a game over 15 games and my Dwarf teams are averaging 2.67 over 30 games.

I really think its a bit unrealistic to expect ANY Ogre roster to rack up less than Norse and Dwarf teams.

Galak

[GalakStarscraper]

I will give it a try: stunties (say for example skinks) have only access to AG skills.

Doesn't work at all.

Stunties have access to 7 AG skills through normal skill rolls. IE they can fully develop without ever rolling a double or a stat increase.

ST only players would need a special rule written to cover the possibility of running out of skills to take ... Stunties don't have this problem. IE your argument doesn't sway me at all. I'm not arguing about the QUALITY of the skill choices ... its the QUANTITY that has me unchangeable in my opinion on the issue.

Galak

[Mirascael]

No, it's block, and to deny this for the ogre blocker was the idea behind it. So the "exception" for only access to one skill list is already there...

You want to deny Block to a Blocker?

[Ghost of Pariah]

Actually I'd like to see the ogre team cause 3 or 4 casualties a game but maybe only .5 or .3 TD's a game.

[Skummy]

All right, 2 may be a bit low, but I don't think they should be higher than Dwarves. Dwarves are an attrition team that work together to get casualties. If you make a big guy team that does better than them at their own schtick, something's wrong. Making two new teams in this short of a timespan with this large a casualty capacity is going to change the game. I can't see Skaven handling either team at all well.

Maybe it would finally get the Rats 0-4 Storm Vermin, though.

[Ghost of Pariah]

That's the last thing the Skaven need!