Bretonnian roster... What's the deal?

[Darkson]

the reputable people - Darkson,

(Thought I'd get in before anyone else. )

[plasmoid]

@Harvestmouse:

I don't see blockers coming with block at all. This is a different nuance on the word block. Blockers are a player that 'blocks' the way.

As stated before, I play the game that is. Not the one that was (or should be again).
I see 2 kinds of blckers in the game: ST4 ones and ST3 + block ones. Like Dwarf Blockers and Chaos Dwarf Blockers in the actual rules.
Just look to Spubbbbas post a Little bit above your own.

The Yeoman as a blocker is the most ridiculous blocker that could be thought up. A player that blocks the way by lying on the floor.

As you know, be design he wasn't called a blocker. So this is a beef with Cyanide rather than with my roster.
But if he is on the floor then he either blocked someone or defensively prevented someone from going any further. Blocker.

Your argument was that fend fitted their cowering nature and that is why they were given a skill, yet you point out that you've tried to wedge all sorts of combos on them.

And the fact that you call that "wedge all sorts of combos on them" makes me think that you have no real point beyond exaggerated language.
I've had a clear vision of a badly trained, badly equipped player, with a knack for avoiding a beating from his master. And I've tried out various versions of that over the years.

Also, there's nothing stopping them from having the ball. Why not give them no hands, as a ruling that they're forbidden to handle the ball. That, I could understand.

Just saying that makes it so clear why we don't see eye to eye on team design.
They don't have "no hands" because they have hands!
It's the same reason Blitzers don't have Horns, which could otherwize proxy the charging they do on invisible warhorses.

And as Garion has highlighted, the playstyle in perpetual, isn't going to work out either. Competitive gamers will skill 2 blitzers at best, more likely one, and recycle. The Blockers will be the stars of the show, and the ones that are promoted. Rosters will be small, and TV kept low.

That may well be true on FUMBBL. Or long term open play. But they're not the only team taking a performance nosedive at high TV in that setting.
They'll be fine for tournaments, offering a lot of interesting metagame options.
They'll be fine for short term TT Leagues.
And they'll be fine for longer (TT) Leagues, where there isn't always an opponent at the same TV, so TV-outgrowing your League mates actually offers an advantage.
Will the be enough of a CPOMB counter to do well in FUMBBL? Who knows. Probably not.

Thanks for the input.
Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

@Garion:

Indeed, you really need to be more careful who you take advise from plasmoid. looking at just this thread alone and nowhere else the reputable people - Joemanji, Spubbba, Darkson, Jimmy fantastic, both Matts, HM and a number of others all dislike this roster that have all be playing for at least 25 years or more.

Yeah, you've hinted before that only my circle of yes-men like the roster.
But the team was forged in a lot of internet discussion.
For example, Joemanji who you name-drop above, was the driving force between the team not being the Bretonnian Army Team. I heard his argument, he changed my mind, and I still prefer his argument to yours.

You just needed to keep it simple straight forward and in keeping with the theme.
Bretonnia is about chivalric code of combat, its about heavy armoured knights, and their caste system (which you do address).

And like Joe I find the idea of heavily armoured knights playing rather silly.
Blood Bowl is not Warhammer Battle Bowl. Bretonnia is a nation, not an army.
I'll take nobles over heavily armoured knights. And over halbardiers. Or flagellants.

I have not seen any good feedback for this roster from anyone that knows the history of the game to be honest. Only the relative newcomers seem to think it’s okay for the most part, which should tell you a lot.

I'll take the newcomers over the self professed elite.
And besides, you don't really know whose advice I took, so you don't know if they're even more elite than you are.

But I'll quote a PM I just recieved:

Try not to let these people get to you. Their arguments are full of glaring fallacies and only seem to indicate that they'd like Blood Bowl (and the current community) to be frozen in time. Our group likes what you do, even if its not always what we'd choose. Someone needs to look forward. Also, I Farming love the Bret blitzers having a unique skill progression. What would be fun about doing the exact same thing all other blitzers do?

That was quite encouraging actually

or the 4th edition roster, without the names. e.g. change them too Blocker, Blitzer, Thrower peseant would have sufficed.

Yeah, I remember the Collection of random Citadel Journal rosters that were included in Gold edition. You may say that you love that "almost the human team" team. But it would get slaughtered for having no reason to be.

It’s nothing person Martin, I like some things you do for the game, but this is so wrong, Blitzers with no S access, they are meant to be the stars......

And I disagree completely that you need S to be a star.
As someone else was kind enough to post on FUMBBL, the rules describe blitzers like this:

"Blitzers are just about the best all-round players on the pitch. They are quite fast and agile, yet strong enough to smash their way through the opposing line when they have to. Former ace Reavers player Griff Oberwald is a typical Blitzer: fast, strong and just a bit too flash!"

I know you then choose to focus on "fast", "strong" and "smash their way through".
I think you conveniently ignore everything else.
I think MA7, Block and Dauntless covers that nicely.
Bretonnian nobles then, are the flashier version, rather than the bashier version.
S is not a requirement. Or are all of the elf blitzers not really blitzers?

But I don't see anything new here, or anything that would suggest these guys are Bretonnians based on their stats and skills.

If you don't see anything new, then I'm surprised you find them so offensive.
As for not seeing Bretonnians, you probably aren't seeing the Bretonnian military.
But you're seeing flashy, excellent blitzers, rather anonymous serfs, and badly equipped and badly trained commoners.

If that doesn't read Bretonnia to you, then so be it.
Cheers
Martin

[garion]

I'm sorry but you clearly have very little understanding of this game. I never realized how little idea until no. Of course you need S access to be the star of the team, or GA access, it must be one or the other, a player with Gp is nothing but a lineman with leader access.

You can add a nameless quote if you like , it doesn't bother me, it is really clear just from this thread alone how overwhelming negative the feedback is for this roster from those that have played this game for any real length of time.

I'm honestly shocked at how poorly you have taken feedback on board. I just have to pray more of your changes aren't made to the game otherwise we will end up with leader minotaurs , fend wardancers and God knows what else. You need to take a step back and have a long hard look at what you're doing to the game, because it's starting to filter in to cyanides gamecyanides and could end up effecting the naf and then everything will have to follow suit.

[garion]

The roster is just a bit meh, and has some odd design decisions without adding anything new to the game. 'Glory-hog' Blitzers with Passing access to make them better at giving the ball to someone else? Or is it selfish feudal lords who have easier access to 'Leader' to inspire the peasants they don't care about?

Martin - I though you said.......

[plasmoid]

Hi Garion,
this is as good a time as any to let you have this thread to yourself.

I'm sorry but you clearly have very little understanding of this game. I never realized how little idea until no.

Wow. How wonderfully elitist of you. I'll just leave that comment to shine.

Of course you need S access to be the star of the team, or GA access, it must be one or the other, a player with Gp is nothing but a lineman with leader access.

I'm just able to tell the difference between a powerful playing piece and being the star of a team. You see, I care about the fluff.

I'm honestly shocked at how poorly you have taken feedback on board.

I've taken plenty of feedback on board over the years. Just not yours.
In fact you're here complaining because of me recently taking feedback on board.

Martin - I though you said.......

If that's your comeback, then you didn't read what I said.
Joemanjis contribution to the development of the team is exactly what I said. Even if he isn't crazy about the end result.

Cheers
Martin

[legowarrior]

Hey plasmoid, thanks for the cool team. It is nice to see something new happen to the game. Hopefully, Blood Bowl 2 will add more teams and make more balance changes to the game. I really like the concept of a pass access being on the most important team member. Hopefully it will lead to more interesting styles of play.

Too bad the old guard seems antagonistic to change.

[harvestmouse]

When changes potentially affect the old guard they will be. No offence LW, but this is exactly what Garion is talking about above.

I'm not going to continue after this, as 1 it's circular and 2 it's turning a bit dark. However I'm agreeing with Garion.

Your view of a downed Blocker/Yeoman 'blocking the way' is just a terrible and forced analogy.

I've also said, several times it really wouldn't take much to make this roster acceptable. I'm perfectly fine with the blitzer stats. Dauntless describes Bretonnians well, catch is a little strange but is a standard human skill.

You also mention Dwarfs being Blockers, elsewhere I have said this is a problem and I think a mistake by the BBRC. I think several of the changes on the rosters at LRB5 were a mistake, and you've continued in that vein, but even more so.

The Dwarf Blocker is a Lineman/Blocker/superior humanoid (Dwarfs and Elves being superior to other races). So blocker doesn't really fit well. A topic on FUMBBL 1 very experienced coach said they're clearly Linemen, another clearly Blockers. They don't fit well in either. Longbeards (being a type of person, not just a military unit would have been better) and CDs, why do they need blocker position at all? Why not CDs? Are Bull Centaurs going to be called blitzers in the next edition?

As for 'No hands' what are you talking about? How many no hands players actually don't have hands? I can only think of Lucky Luc. It can represent many things, and surely this is what you're looking for isn't it? Forbidden to the point that they'd literally refuse to pick the thing up, even if it meant scoring a TD.

You just cannot see the contradictions of your team. Bretonnia is a Warhammer nation, the Blood Bowl world is far more cosmopolitan. I don't care what you call your blitzer. He's a Knight that's obvious, but he's also a blitzer (bar the access) that doesn't matter. Yet if you go down the blood bowl route, we have humans. The human team is the team of the old world. If you go down the warhammer route, why change the names and not base them off of the warhammer counterparts? It's the High/Pro Elf situation. Either, the old world is cosmopolitan and we have the human roster. Or Bretonnia (like all the bumpf you put on your site like the look of the Cyanide roster and the incorrectly referenced Albion Wanderers) you go with a separate state. You seem to be referencing one or other to defend your roster. You cannot have both.

My only advice for the future is to at least look at the design goals of the original rosters and if you haven't read neoliminal's design guide, please do so.

Peace.

[SunDevil]

@Sundevil: Blitzers do blitz, Blockers do block and Runners do run....that's their job and that's why they're called their position. In professional sports you don't hire a goal keeper or a quarter back and make him something different because it's boring.

harvestmouse = This was the post I was referring in regards to using the term 'boring'. If I misunderstood (and it would be neither the first time nor the last) then I apologize. While we disagree on the Bret roster and what it might mean for roster design in the future, I have greatly enjoyed discussing it with you. I also want to thank you for your mature and polite posts. I hope the thread will continue in that vein.

[garion]

Hey plasmoid, thanks for the cool team. It is nice to see something new happen to the game. Hopefully, Blood Bowl 2 will add more teams and make more balance changes to the game. I really like the concept of a pass access being on the most important team member. Hopefully it will lead to more interesting styles of play.

Too bad the old guard seems antagonistic to change.

To be clear I am not resistant to change at all. In fact I would welcome it with open arms. As long as it is done in the correct manner. What I am really unhappy about is –

A) the changes being made by cyanide, who have no history with the game, have no interest in preserving the good qualities of the game, are in it purely for the wrong reasons (the money), and do not even appear to understand the rules.
B) The rules being heavily influenced by NTTB or CRP+ as Plasmoid has called it. What really concerns me (which I eluded to in my last post, but it got ignored) is that Plasmoid has been pushing his agenda really hard since the CRP was disbanded, and it has caused much confusion already, I have literally seen hundreds of occasions in which newer coaches believe CRP+ was testing for the next version of the game, and people that thing this is some form of BBRC. This is not helped by the fact Plasmoid calls it CRP+, or claims to have backing from big names like double skulls or Galak on his web site, while he does say they only gave their blessing to specific rules jumbling them in with other rules that Plasmoid wants and mixing it up witha Bretonnian roster - is both disingenuous, deceitful and confusing to the ill-informed. This has concerned me for a long time now, and now BB 2 has been released it would appear to have taken some of his crack pot ideas on board with no thought about how this could potentially effect the wider community. It is now possible the NAF could include this roster in their “official rosters list” which would mean Quorn would be too and would open up the gates for all kinds of crap like Sigmarines or Teenage Mutant Hero Turtle teams if they thought it would sell. Further to this we could end up seeing other terrible changes like Av8 Break Tackle Tomb Guardians in the final BB2 product, which would completely kill the character of that team.

Here is a quote which exemplifies what I am referring to –

Posted by mekutata on 2015-09-25 17:15:20
i would watch the twitch of one of these constant conceider people. curious what crazy stuff they would go through,

i thought woodelves got now fend instead of block?

And believe me we see a lot of this.

What also concerns me if we have someone who has been given the freedom to design a roster who clearly does not understand the game, if they believe a 7338 GP player can be the focus of the team. Who’s experience is based mostly around a PBEM league in which it takes a year to play 10 games. From which no real conclusions can actually be made about anything, but uses it to back up changes they want to make.

But back to the roster in question – If you think that Knights who should be the star of the team, the focus of the team, can get away with only have GP access you are kidding yourself. Anyone who has played this game knows your players have to either have GS or GA access in order to shine in this game anywhere apart from very low TV and the occasional stat freak.

Of course you need S access to be the star of the team, or GA access, it must be one or the other, a player with GP is nothing but a lineman with leader access.

I'm just able to tell the difference between a powerful playing piece and being the star of a team. You see, I care about the fluff.

I’m not clear what you are saying here, are you saying that Blitzer is not a powerful player (not piece… player), but is still the star of the team? If so that is a contradiction in terms, as stated above, the only way this player can become a star is by getting enough stats and doubles, eg. Get dodge on a double and Ag4, then sure hands, Tackle, +Ma. Or MB and PO both on doubles. It’s a design error.

The other thing you keep stating as rationale for not adhering to the archetypes of Bretonnia is because you don’t want it to be the military playing Blood Bowl which really goes against the whole history of the sport.

From the rules, the backstory of how the game began -

Armour was taken from the temple, and placed on chosen warriors from either side….. and to this day no-one is quite sure who actually won. There was a suitably large amount of carnage, however, and everyone agreed that they had really enjoyed themselves. The battle was forgotten, and the various sides dispersed to carry the exciting news to their homelands, where every tribe quickly rushed to field a team.

The whole point of Blood Bowl was it brought about an end to war in the typical sense and the warring factions’ warriors fought on the Bloodbowl field adhering to the rules of the game (mostly). It was a nod to Roller Ball, Salute of the Jugger (spelling?) and probably a few other films from the era. So it’s pretty clear what the intentions are.

Now I do understand you wanted to do something different, and make the game more interesting, but somewhere along the way you have lost site of actually making a roster that resembles Bretonnia. When designing rosters you need to stick to some basic building principles. Ask people, or research what the region is famous for, what they are synonymous with. Build the players using human linemen as your base average player, and adjust stats and skills based on how they vary just as JJs and JKLs building guide stated about 15 years ago. Do not bolt things on to players unless there is an obvious reason for the skill being there. Look at the player design, think about how the miniatures would look, think about how this race would arm their best warriors for battle/blood bowl and build accordingly. Just keep it simple. Blitzers throughout the game both in roster design and fluff - are the hard hitters of the team, the strongest fittest players. You say above somewhere that in that case Dark Elf Blitzers should have S access, but you know that is nonsense. They have block and as a result are very bashy starter players for their race. Humans strongest and best fighters are their Blitzers and should have S access. P access is just random and goes against JJ and JKLs building guide.

Now your previous verion of the roster was-

Peasants 6237 Fend G
Yeoman 6338 Wrestle GS
Knights 7338 Block, Catch Dauntless GS

Now that is far closer representation to Bretonnia, its not perfect, and there are still things that are a bit off about it, but its something people could live with. Sadly it happened now, and I give it a year before this trash starts creeping in to the game in other ways, either NAF tournaments, or NAF acceptance, which could then see it creep in to fumbbl.

And whats next will there be a big push for Tomb Guardians to have BT and av8 (which would destroy that teams character for me). Or another change you want – Fend on your Wardancers instead of block or dodge (again a terrible change), or Leader on the chaos minotaur (again totally left field, bolted on, terrible change).

Please keep it really really simple - like removal of decay, on Tomb Guardian only, or Loner from Goblin Trolls only, 10k of Minos and Ogres. Tiny baby steps is all we need for this game at the moment while the changes are in the hands of the madmen and clueless at cyanide.

So please just stop! Or this game will be irreparably damaged.

[plasmoid]

Hi Harvestmouse,
It is true that we're not going to agree on this. But I appriciate your civility, and I'm glad that you almost sort of like the roster.

Your view of a downed Blocker/Yeoman 'blocking the way' is just a terrible and forced analogy.

In all fairness, Garion introduced that spin on what a blocker is 2 days ago. Wouldn't that just be called a block? Like a road block.
Never mind.
I reference the existing rules (and Spubbbba) when I say that there are ST3 blockers in the game.

As for 'No hands' what are you talking about? How many no hands players actually don't have hands? I can only think of Lucky Luc. It can represent many things, and surely this is what you're looking for isn't it?

What it represents is no available hands. Like if you carry a running chainsaw or hold a steering Wheel. Bretonnian linemen do.
I don't see a no hands solution getting any less harsh criticism than what I have now. I'm not a fan of proxy skilling physical characteristics into something non-physical. I'm unable to stomach, say, dwarf players with tentacles "because they're good at tieing up opponents".

Bretonnia is a Warhammer nation, the Blood Bowl world is far more cosmopolitan.

The Blood Bowl World is a spin on the warhammer World. If it can have skaven, high elfs, dark elfs and Middenheim, I see no logical reason why it couldn't have Bretonnia.

Yet if you go down the blood bowl route, we have humans.

And Norse. And Amazon. Who are very clearly also human. That's the current rules.
You call humans the old World team (it seems). I call it the roster for humans that haven't got their own roster.

My only advice for the future is to at least look at the design goals of the original rosters and if you haven't read neoliminal's design guide, please do so.

I know neoliminals guide thanks. I just re-read it.
I'm not breaking a single rule on it.
Which is quite something considering that of the 15 teams referenced in it, something like 8 of them do.
His explicit statements on what is allowed is a lot less rigid than yours.

Perhaps I would have been wise to rename the Blitzer to Runner, when I changed his skill access to P. Then it would have been Runner, Yeoman, Lineman. Though I know you hate runners too.
And as mentioned above, I'm quite happy with the Bretonnian Blitzer highlightning the 'flashy' rather than the 'bashy' in the rulebook's description of what a blitzer is.

Peace.

Peace to you too.
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi Garion,
There are 0 rules from the NTBB rosters in Cyanides release. And just 2 of the 10 CRP+ rules. The end of the World is not coming - even if they did chose to include my Bretonnian roster.
I'll happily take a bet with you that there will be no Break Tackle Tomb Guardians. There aren't even any in NTBB.

As for the army roots of BB: Until a see a team list with halbardiers and crossbowmen, I'll stick with Joemanjis vision over yours: That of teams of trained professionals playing sports.

I'm glad you sort of liked the old team. The only differences are the names and the P access.

Cheers
Martin

[garion]

To be clear, I didnt like the old verion, it was just in offensive and passable, though I still didn't like it much, the current roster is not passable and is offensive because of P access being bolted on and No S access on human blitzers.

As for the army roots of BB: Until a see a team list with halbardiers and crossbowmen, I'll stick with Joemanjis vision over yours: That of teams of trained professionals playing sports.

Again you know you are talking nonesense here, no one is talking about halbardiers etc.. we are talking about trained warriors for that region and how they would look, otherwise you could use that daft arguement to give anyone from any region any crazy stats you want, and as I quoted before Joe doesnt like your roster, so I wouldnt go round calling this roster "his vision."

Finally you are still not responding to the fact you are trying to push your agenda on the game and how potentially damaging this could be for the wider community, which is the big picture here.

[plasmoid]

Hi Garion,

....and yet there are no silver helms on the high elf team.
I think the most generous response to your argument is that Blood Bowl teams can be designed in 2 ways.
I've chosen the one that you wouldn't have.

And much as Joe has some issues with my roster, it is 100% true that he was the one who convinced me that a Blood Bowl team should represent professional athletes rather than military personnel.

As to me being the shadowy and evil power behind the throne... I guess it's nice to know who the bad guy is.
1) But as to misleading Cyanide, they had consultants from the BB community - such as myself - who could and would straighten out any misconceptions they might have had that CRP+ is semi official. You might even entertain the thought that there could have been BBRC members along those consultants.

2) As for me misleading the general public, I rewritten the site several times, making the distinction between CRP+ and NTRosters ever more explicit. Anyone confused by word of mouth can go to the site for the rules, and get the facts easily. It says house rules on the second line of the site. It draws the distinction between the CRP+ changes and the rosters on the first line.

3) That I've evilly snuck my own rules into the CRP+.
The BBRC members were specifically asked if I could reference them on the site, and had full right of veto over all the CRP+ rules.
The site clearly states that the 6 major/impactful CRP+ rules were designed with the BBRC members.
And that the 4 minor ones (we're talking "no bonus Cash on concessions") were accepted/not-vetoed.
If I thought it would help anything, I'd happily go back to just the 6.

Cheers
Martin

[Regash]

Could you all give Plasmoid a rest, please?

He made some house rules, yes.
He maybe chose a rather unlucky name for them, yes.
But is it his fault so many people adopt them?
Is he guilty of them being spread all around the community?

You don't like the rule changes? Don't use 'em!
You hate seeing them introduced to Blood Bowl 2 by Cyanide? Don't buy the effing game!
You prefer to stick to official rules, like I do? Than do just that!

My solution for Bretonnian or Khorne rosters?
They are not official teams, I refuse to play them.

Problem solved.