Poll: spps for crowd and fouling cas: USE THIS POLL!!

dakkakhan · Post by **dakkakhan** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 1:02 pm

Guys guys, you aren't listening. Wes's data is as broken as yours is. Since 3rd edition the game has changed so much with skills, rules, etc. that affect the way fouls are done that you cannot truly determine which aspect had the biggest effect on FOULING!!!

Are you really saying that it's the 2 SPP's that have completely eradicated the gross misuse of fouling? IGMEOY, the reduction of lethality in RSC, the inability to combo kill-skills, and the decrease in money had absolutely nothing to do with it? Come on!

No one can actually sit here and say:
1. We played 3rd edition
2. We played 3rd edition plus IGMEOY
3. We played 3rd edition plus IGMEOY, and the LRB Money, minus Cards
4. We played 3rd edition plus IGMEOY, the LRB Money, and the reduced kill skills.
5. Next we played 3rd edition plus IGMEOY, the LRB Money, the reduced kill skills, and we stopped giving SPP's for Fouling, and only then did fouling come under control.

The fact is that 3rd edition BB did not slowly mutate into LRB and allow you to test each and every new rule etc. to see what it would do to the game. Shoot that's exactly how you want the BBRC to affect changes to the game now, to seek play-testing results and suggestions from the larger community before putting garbage in print.

So you guys like the LRB, that's fine, but to say you have proof is silly. You have proof the way we do it now is better than 3rd edition. I agree. Wes says (he thinks) it would be better to keep it the way it is except to give SPP's for fouls...I agree there too, but you don't. That's fine. What sort of league stats would prove that SPP's for fouls is not overpowering? How many games, under what conditions? For every example I give you you'll give me some that prove it is...I suppose this is then a dead discussion.

Marcus if we get you to quit the game again perhaps someone else can win a tourney!

Now who's with me?

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 1:10 pm

I agree completely with dakka. The reduction of fouls that cause casualties isnt just because of lack of spp's. A large number of factors changed fouling.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 1:20 pm

dakkakhan wrote:What sort of league stats would prove that SPP's for fouls is not overpowering?

The only to prove it would be to take the most foul-happy league in the world, give CAS for fouling and see if that league still manages to survive. Even if it works somewhere else, it doesn't mean that it could work there unless you actually try it there.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 3:14 pm

Zombie wrote:
dakkakhan wrote:What sort of league stats would prove that SPP's for fouls is not overpowering?
The only to prove it would be to take the most foul-happy league in the world, give CAS for fouling and see if that league still manages to survive. Even if it works somewhere else, it doesn't mean that it could work there unless you actually try it there.

do you honestly thing the most foul-happy league in the world DOESN'T ALREADY give spps for fouling still?

In fact I'm sure they threw out IGMEOY in every version as well, and most likely a lot of the other rules we're talking about too

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 3:42 pm

I really don't believe that a truly foul-happy league could survive with SPPs and without IGMEOY. Some people believe that a foul-happy league is defined by its violent rules. I believe it's quite the contrary, and that the fewer rules you have to prevent fouling, the more it proves that the coaches in that league won't abuse it. Either that or the league fails miserably after just a few weeks.

For example, Pariah's league under 3rd ed, in my mind, was very friendly. They would only foul the top players or those who were the most annoying at any given moment. A league like that can survive without IGMEOY. On the other hand, a league where the coaches will take advantage of every loophole they can find couldn't survive without that rule.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 3:51 pm

Zombie wrote:I really don't believe that a truly foul-happy league could survive with SPPs and without IGMEOY. Some people believe that a foul-happy league is defined by its violent rules. I believe it's quite the contrary, and that the fewer rules you have to prevent fouling, the more it proves that the coaches in that league won't abuse it. Either that or the league fails miserably after just a few weeks.

For example, Pariah's league under 3rd ed, in my mind, was very friendly. They would only foul the top players or those who were the most annoying at any given moment. A league like that can survive without IGMEOY. On the other hand, a league where the coaches will take advantage of every loophole they can find couldn't survive without that rule.

Did it in 3rd ed for several years. League was very violent, we had 4 star players to a team, no igmeoy, no sigurds rule, spps for fouling cas. The league had about 70 coaches, about 120 teams (you were allowed to have more than one team once you got the other team above tr 250)

I won the Blood Bowl tourney with wood elves. Beat a VERY mean Chaos team called the KKK (Kaos Krypt Keepers). He caused 7 cas in the first half but I scored 3 times. In the second half I didn't have enough players left to do anything, usually 3 or 4 between cas and ko's but I slowed him down enough that he could only score twice...and JUST BARELY twice, I tried real hard to hold him to 1....anyway won 3-2.

We had a VERY sucessful league that was totally contrary to your point of view.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 4:25 pm

On the subject of other rules affecting the argument. Have you considered the fact that with the new winnings tables, no special play cards to give you money and changes to the FF rules it's very difficult to replace dead players. If you think it's hard to get your blackorcs skills, how hard to you think it is to keep the skills on them if they keep getting fouled, then only get replaced after 3 games when you've saved up enough cash?

I find it hard enough to keep a TR 180+ team stocked with over 13 players as it is, without bringing back the good old dirty player arms race.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 4:30 pm

yeah personally i think that whole thing has gone a little too far...with the winnings table and ff and all. I like the idea, and it's better than it was in 3rd ed...but i just think it went a touch beyond what i'm comfortable with.

that's why i have no problems taking out ageing and not replacing it with anything...the rest of the stuff does more than enough at keeping teams small.

as for a "fouling arms race" as you called it, again, i'm not suggesting going back to the way it was, just a little tweak. I want to keep igmeoy which is the biggest fouling deterrent. I want to keep dp at +2 to either arm OR inj, not both, and so on. I just think players should still get spps for fouling.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 4:54 pm

wesleytj wrote:Did it in 3rd ed for several years. League was very violent, we had 4 star players to a team, no igmeoy, no sigurds rule, spps for fouling cas. The league had about 70 coaches, about 120 teams (you were allowed to have more than one team once you got the other team above tr 250)

I won the Blood Bowl tourney with wood elves. Beat a VERY mean Chaos team called the KKK (Kaos Krypt Keepers). He caused 7 cas in the first half but I scored 3 times. In the second half I didn't have enough players left to do anything, usually 3 or 4 between cas and ko's but I slowed him down enough that he could only score twice...and JUST BARELY twice, I tried real hard to hold him to 1....anyway won 3-2.

We had a VERY sucessful league that was totally contrary to your point of view. :)

How many fouls per game were there on average on each side?

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 5:11 pm

Problem with IGMEOY though, is it's practially useless when you get SPPs for fouling. To remain competitive you take a DP and foul with him as well so you dont' lose out on the SPPs, eye resets, next team fouls, rinse, repeat.

Not really a tweak as it has profound effects on the application of the other anti-fouling rule.

Besides which, it does nothing to deter people who are just out for fouling SPPs, remember we're talking about people who don't mind losing as long as it means developing their team. In a league environment there's plenty of people who are prepared to sacrifice a win in order to build a killer team. Just look at the number of games 100TR vs 300TR games that were played in the OLBBL just to get the extra MVPs.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 3:10 am

Zombie wrote:
How many fouls per game were there on average on each side?

Well I never fouled first, so my personal games would probably be a bit less, but I'd be willing to bet there was prolly a league average of 20 fouls a game or so. That'd be each player fouling 5 times a half.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 4:22 am

Let's see. 10 fouls per game on each side. Let's assume always with a dirty player (it doesn't make sense otherwise) and no assists (it's much worse if we assume assists or stacking other skills). Let's assume 1 in 3 fouls were against AV7, 1 in 3 vs AV8 and 1 in 3 vd AV9. *Gets his calculator*. Without Sigurd's, that represents, for each side, on average one CAS per game that results either in a death (80%) or a permanent injury (20%). This is only for fouls, and there should be more from blocks. You've had at least as many blocks as you had fouls (they had to be put to the ground somehow), but probably at least twice as much. Let's be conservative again and assume only double the amounts and that they did only as much damage total (most should have had at least mighty blow if the league was as violent as you say it was). That's still 2 permanent injury/death per game on average. That's only an average, so we can expect some games to have none and some others to have easily 6 or more. Tell me, how are teams supposed to survive to such attrition? Even under 3rd ed, they didn't make enough money to replace the players lost! We're talking losing more than one player (unapothed) per game here!

The only possible conclusions are either one of these:

1. You were exagerating with 20 fouls per game, and your league wasn't that violent.
2. People didn't use dirty player much, in which case your league was very soft by any standards i've seen.
3. People were playing with TR70-TR150 teams all the time because they kept getting decimated, yet despite almost never being able to field 11 players to start a game, they were still enjoying it.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 7:08 am

Zombie wrote:3. People were playing with TR70-TR150 teams all the time because they kept getting decimated, yet despite almost never being able to field 11 players to start a game, they were still enjoying it.

Isn't that the most important thing?

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 2:09 pm

yes and if thats what they want to play they can house rule it and let the rest of us enjoy it

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 4:54 pm

[quote Zombie]
The only possible conclusions are either one of these:

1. You were exagerating with 20 fouls per game, and your league wasn't that violent.
2. People didn't use dirty player much, in which case your league was very soft by any standards i've seen.
3. People were playing with TR70-TR150 teams all the time because they kept getting decimated, yet despite almost never being able to field 11 players to start a game, they were still enjoying it.[/quote]

Well the 20 a game was only a best guess...it could have been more or less than that. Also I think it's kinda crazy to say 1/3 of those fouls would have been against av7...I was one of the few wood elf teams there were, and there were no goblin or fling teams that I know of. Oh take that back there was 1 goblin team. A few skaven teams too, but remember they had Headsplitters. Plus I would imagine the foulfests that would drive up the averages were more likely to happen amongst the basher teams... orc v orc, chaos v orc, etc.

Also remember that there were plenty of AV10 guys running around back then, lots of star players and magic helmets... the most common races were orc with 4 morgs, and humans with a mix of morgs and luthors. My main team was wood elves with 3 deeproots, and I had dark elves with 2 assassins that I rarely fielded because they sucked to bad. (and you have guys who complain NOW that dark elves suck...man back in the star player days it was REAL rough)

But yes, about 1 death per game unapothed sounds about right. What happened when a team had 6-10 guys die? He retired them and made a new one. It wasn't that common, and you just made a new team and went on. Now, not everybody ever made it to TR 250 (where you could make a new team) but plenty did. My wood elves took 1MI and the rest RE's every game to hopefully assure extra income.

Also, not every foul had dp...the dp's were the first targets, and in my team's case, the dp started on the bench and only came on when my opponent fouled, so until then I had to foul with someone else if I did.

A lot of other people used claw or fangs (not both too often), and I know a few orc and dwarf players that fouled with mightyblow because they thought it was good enough and didn't want to waste a skill on dp. They weren't right but I certainly wasn't going to tell them that.

My BB winning wood elves were near tr 400 after that game (of course they had a TON of winnings from the BB, and they even pulled the Merchandising card for that game too so we won about 420K total...that's 42tr right there. Which is good because I had 4 guys die in the final. A wardancer with 48spp (GRR!), a star treeman, a line elf with about 20spp iirs, and a freebooted guy I bought for the game because I knew it was coming... he died on the first turn.

Incidentally, that was by far the most successful BB league we've ever had around here. My current one using mostly LRB rules has about 20 coaches, 1 team each, and games aren't played that much. Back in the "monsters in the closet league" days (3rd ed) it was hard to go in the store and not have at least 1bb match going. That's not to suggest we had the best rule set back then, as I certainly prefer much of the LRB stuff to it, but it must say SOMETHING about SOMETHING.

Talk Fantasy Football

Poll: spps for crowd and fouling cas: USE THIS POLL!!

Should crowd and/or fouling cas be awarded spps again?