Bretonnian roster... What's the deal?

[harvestmouse]

Well JJ obviously got nostalgic for the 2nd ed feel as he tried to replicate that with the last few (official with official figure line) rosters to be released. (pro) Elves and Ogres both tried to create that vibe (mohawks, tight leather, visor helmets etc).

However that said, what we have no are teams from both a Warhammer feel and the renaissance meets cyber punk feel. The really cool thing about the 2nd ed feel is how it's aging. That 1980s future (that shadowrun had and let go) is such a cool look.

However that said, we have a game that has High Elves and Chaos Dwarfs (very 4th edition Warhammer) and the pre mentioned Pro Elves and Ogres (a modern take on the cyber feel). What's more we have a vast array of figures from both ranges.

So both looks and feels are viable. So if you're deliberately taking Bretonnia as a roster, how are you going to market that other than giving it a Knight/warhammer feel? That is what they're all about. High Elves are rather traditional and keep to their values and Bretonnians are exactly the same. The Warhammer nation is all about shunning technology or moving on (which in the BB world would be moving into the cyber-punk era), so I see no other way but to keep the Knight/Peasant theme. Whether you call them Knights/Peasants well I'm not sure that matters so much.

I think it'd be a dangerous and difficult road to theme a Bretonnian roster on anything bar the 2 extreme tier roster that I think everybody who has done a list has. If you don't like that, then really you're against the Bretonnian roster being added at all.

The roster first came around when we were in a very Warhammer World orientated time (3rd/4th edition). Yeah we have moved on from then, do Cyanide know this? It's difficult to know what they are thinking, however I do admire them for taking on brave decisions like Khorne and Bretonnia. I'm not sure they're making good decisions however. Recently, rosters have been more based on teams (underworld/creepers Pact/Allstars) Personally I think those rosters are great and I would like to see more like this, however for me there's no harm in adding a Warhammer feel roster, especially when it's from a nation that shuns technology and keeps to traditional values, like Bretonnia.

As for the feel of Martin/Plasmoid's team. Yes, I have never liked it much, but I feel you're losing the plot with it. Pass access (for example) on the Knights feel's terribly bolted on. Justifying it with fluff (showing off) really doesn't work for me. It's clear the rules are made to balance the roster, and then some fluff to justify that is added. Honestly, I think you're better off not. BB players are intelligent people and they know when the fluff feels real or not. This is the major mistake the crew that made the Khorne roster really didn't get.

A human is a human. I think you need a very good reason to veer away from the already describe stats, skills and skill access on a new human roster. As an example, I very much doubt Norse and Zons do this and sit very awkwardly with the other rosters and are clearly from the same (doesn't sit so well) era.

So is adding Bretonnia a good idea? You have another human team with human stats and you have the fluff that harks back to 1994........again probably not the best choice of new rosters, but as I'd like to see more and more (I respect what Spubbba is saying though) I'm really not anti Bretonnia in principle.

I think if you look at the Blitzer on a human team, you can relate to him being a Knight. So the core player of both humans and Bretonnians should be almost identical. You could add Dauntless or Stand Firm to show they don't back down and take on all comers, but I can't see justifying any other changes.

Making the linemen very weak, compensates for that. 6 3 3 7 Lino teams always struggle (bar zons) (when you have to field them).

As for Grail Knights, well that's an example. There are plenty of options here. You don't even have to stick to Warhammer naming policies although they do have a lot of Knight examples.

For me I think there should be 4 player types:

1. The serf/peasant type. Definitely AV 7, definitely pretty useless. As the human team has AV 8 linos (with some use). This gives a different feel to the team already. You can't rely on these, and they're there to do the dirty work. More likely to be foulers (cheaper), less likely to be cared about and really left to stop more expensive players taking those harder hits.

2. Squire (yeoman) if you like player. I'd market this one as a replacement to a thrower. However being a traditional warring nation over a nation with BB heritage I wouldn't give him pass, but pass access.

I make mine 7 3 3 7 Sure hands GP. Less armour, but a talented individual (as talented as his position in life will allow anyway). He wears less armour so he can cover the ground quicker. Hence his speed advantage, but his av disadvantage.

3. Blitzer/Knight. Identical to a human blitzer. Adding Stand Firm or Dauntless if you like to show the Bretonnian Chivalry mentality (neither skill makes the player broken). These are your main players of the team. Like humans 0-4.

4. A super knight in super heavy armour. Themewise a higher rated Knight (grail/questing or whatever). Gamewise something on the lines of adding a blocker (something that 2nd ed humans had). Playerwise something along the lines of a Golem. Hard, centre holding player.

0-2, most certainly ST 4 (one of those Knights that can actually hold their own against Chaos Warriors). Dauntless is probably a waste, but a good way to bump the price up. Stand Firm most certainly. Block......well that would be something to playtest. As this fellow wears exceptionally heavy armour, this has an affect on his movement. MA4 AG2 AV9.

Is this a brand new and exciting concept? No, not really but are Old World humans? Most certainly not.

[spubbbba]

0-2, most certainly ST 4 (one of those Knights that can actually hold their own against Chaos Warriors). Dauntless is probably a waste, but a good way to bump the price up. Stand Firm most certainly. Block......well that would be something to playtest. As this fellow wears exceptionally heavy armour, this has an affect on his movement. MA4 AG2 AV9.

Surely Juggernaut would be an ideal skill for these guys, devastating charge being appropriate.

[plasmoid]

Hi Harvestmouse - (and Spubbbba?),
perhaps if you had come to my defense 10(?) years ago, the team could have been different.

Back then I presented my original team design on TFF, and it got trashed (by Joemanji, among others) for being 'not a team of professional athletes'. That critique changed my thinking, and I can't go back. As such, the Warhammery positionals and arguments kind of jar in my ear.

I'm sorry that you feel that the P-access is bolted on. But it's really not. Yes, Rolex suggested it recently, that is true. But if you go back a page, you can see that it was actually on my original design for the team from ages ago. Along with Catch. My thinking was, and still is, that if you're a Noble questing for the grail/trophy, then you understand the nature of that quest. These are modelled on Knight Errant: Young, bold and a touch rash.
You can still hate it, naturally. It just wasn't bolted on.

The other thing I don't quite agree with is when you say: "I think if you look at the Blitzer on a human team, you can relate to him being a Knight". I think a professional athlete and an actual Knight are Worlds apart. So while I think you

could

model a knight on a blitzer, I don't really see any kind of neccessity in doing so. Go to town

BTW - I think that your roster looks interesting

Either way - for you and anyone else reading this thread. I'd love to hear your input on what skills to pick for my current Bret team. They're getting a lot of skills after their current game:
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=41113

Cheers
Martin

[harvestmouse]

Firstly I don't really see how your team isn't based off of a Warhammer Knight style team. Do you mean the naming policy? You've used that style imagery and I believe have based the blitzers off of knights. By that I mean if Knights still existed they would be blitzers (if you get my meaning).

As for my reasoning, let me explain.

On the Nation:

If we look back at the history of Blood Bowl; we know that it comes from the world Warhammer. However at some point in history the Blood Bowl world deviated off of the actual time line. We can see that the Blood Bowl world is somewhere in the future of the Warhammer world. It's also strongly hinted that catalyst that changed the world was finding Blood Bowl. This is the major difference between the 2 and after that the BB world deviated further with this new activity.

With no reference to nations in Blood Bowl, our best guess is that they either don't exist or.......existed like Warhammer pre the rise of Blood Bowl. We know from this that Bretonnia is a very traditional nation, that shuns change. Probably, they picked up Blood Bowl much later than most other nations. Preferring to shut themselves away from outside world culture. We can also be fairly certain that they would keep the class system that exists.

So we have a choice:

1. Nations as we know them do not exist anymore, the Blood Bowl culture has totally eradicated national borders.

2. Although Blood bowl has replaced war on the whole, nations still do exist and to some extent work as they always did (raise armies, run kingdoms etc).

As we have decided that Bretonnia does exist as a nation I feel it's characteristics would still exist. Blood Bowl fluff isn't that serious and they take bits from all sorts even our modern culture. As for teams, we can see different type of teams that fluffwise don't necessarily sit well with each other. The most obvious being Elves. We have pro and high elves. One being a very professional looking ball team, the other a very traditional nation. High Elf teams are based off of a warhammer equivalent. Ok the names have now been changed (a bit pointless in my opinion as imagery has stayed the same), however you can relate each player to a warhammer unit. We now know this approach was a probably a mistake and JJ believes this himself. However, I think if Bretonnia is added, it's very much in the mould of High Elves.

So for me it makes sense to relate the team to the Warhammer nation and creating a new background would be difficult and may not end up that great a product.

As for relating Knights to Blitzers, I don't think that's a stretch at all. The hinted character of your blitzers is the same as Knights. I think your Blitzers would have been Knights if the world stayed on the same parallel as Warhammer. I don't think it's a stretch to say they're still knights.

Also we have to look at the figure range. Ok the 3rd range was during a time they wished to make the connection between BB and Warhammer stronger. However the official human blitzer range certainly had a Knightly look. from the plumes to the armour to the helmet style.

Ok I know the most recent figures have tried to move away from this. Which to me means that possibly again like Khorne, Bretonnians might not be the best choice. However I don't think Cyanide are on the same wave length or have a full understanding what they are dealing with or who they are dealing with. Personally, I'm pro creativity and I think both looks can coincide with each other.

[DinoTitanedition]

Bretonnians are mentioned a lot of times in the Blood Bowl novels. They are what they are - official backgroundmaterial. In those books it is also mentioned that some Bretonnians try out for the Bad Bay Hackers, hence "Human teams" are teams of mixed human nations.

Knights also exist - the playmaker of the Hackers starts out as a knight hunting a chimera, but is recruited by an agent of that team (he is a halfling, wich doesn`t interfer with the sotryline as well, since he is no player).

As you can see, BB is a lot more WH than "steampunk". Honestly, aside of the secret weapons there is extremely little, that could be placed in that corner.

Armies also exist, wars exist. Just not in the scale as in the original Warhammer world anymore. 3 ed. rulebook states, that the dwarf team Giants get called to arms in 2400. 36 years later the team is led back to glory.

[Darkson]

As you can see, BB is a lot more WH than "steampunk". Honestly, aside of the secret weapons there is extremely little, that could be placed in that corner.

Show me Cabalvision, McMurty Burgers and Orcidas in WHB.

[DinoTitanedition]

An organisation of mages using their power to project pictures to magic bowls is hardly enough to call it steampunk. Read the books.

EDIT: No, I`m sorry, you`re right. That actually IS THE element to call it steampunk. Now I know, why I always believed Conan the barbarian to be Sci-Fi

[Digger Goreman]

After 11 more pages of the intermingled "Brett Khorne" Show, I have finally found a rare reason to be grateful for the BBRC disbandment.... And another to be so happy I only play by the Icepelt TT Rules....

I now return you to the BB comedy-drama channel and the Brett Khorne Show....

[Darkson]

Brett Khorne should be a human/chaos Star Player.

[harvestmouse]

Yeah but Goreman, that's the thread....it's not something that's deviated off topic.

For me it's a fairly big issue. On one point if I really liked the Khorne and Bretonnian rosters, it would encourage me to buy the Cyanide game again (the last version I had was Legend Edition and I didn't really like that much about it).

The second point is that the NAF are considering making the Khorne roster official (for NAF). FUMBBL's owner has said that he will follow NAF decision making, which then has further knock on effects and without GW taking creative control, means a large part of official BB will have this/these rosters. If that's the case, I and others want our say.

I'm not sure 'Steampunk' is the right definition. There are certainly elements; everything mechanical for example. Orc body parts, rollers and chainsaws, however for me Steampunk is a 19th century look with better and more eccentric technology. I referred to cyber-punk as the look of 2nd edition, which was recreated with last official figure lines. It's certainly more of what JJ wanted last time he had input, but how much input does he have? How much of what he wants do Cyanide take notice of.....or are they even aware, understand or care about the issue?

Anyway, Warhammer/Cyber/Steam......it's hard to pigeonhole Blood Bowl and I don't think it wants to be pigeonholed. Part of it's charm is that it takes aspects that it likes and adds them to it's world tongue firmly in cheek and says 'stuff inconsistencies and believability up yer bum'. Meaning, BB isn't trying to take itself seriously enough for these to be an issue. Laugh it off and have a magic (were)wolves icecream.

A very good point about the Giants coming back from war. The Dwarf/Goblin war is indeed referenced in BB a few times. Personally (and anybody can read it how they wish) I read this as 'this is the world evolving from Warhammer to Blood Bowl'. As during that time you're seeing many things change to become the world we know.

An example

"2419 Madbull Chainspleen become so much of a terror to the game, that players actually work as a team to block him away from fallen comrades, thus the first star players and veterans of the game come into being."

For me, I think the Giants are far too big (well by that I mean in 88 at the time the NAF fell) to be called to war. After the fall, the world changes again, and maybe they aren't so big anymore.....if war even exists like it did 100 years ago. Again, we can all read that how we want to. We are free to adapt the fluff how we want to. Use the fluff to be creative rather than make the rules rigid and inhibit creativity. Leave that to WHFB and 40k where it belongs.

That's just my personal take on how those 2nd ed guys were trying to portray BB and it's development. I maybe wrong, I maybe trying to read too much into it.

As for Black Library books, how canon are they? GW are always pretty vague about that, however if there is a discrepancy between rule books and novels, the novel is automatically not canon. I mean let's look at who write these novels. They're novelists making interesting stories. They are expected to do their research, however it's a minefield out there, and we all read things differently (like my take on the Giants history).

By saying that the novels overwrite everything, is giving full creative licence of BB to one author. Matt Forbeck, who is a novelist and game designer that is not and has never been (I don't think anyway) part of the BB design crew (although he did work for GW). He like me has a way of reading things, and probably at that time working for GW had a strong connection with Warhammer. I'm ok with the world he portrays, but you know........if I wrote a book that got published pushing my point of view, does that make my work canon?

Again, read it as you wish. If the books are canon to you that's cool. If they're not they're not. For me BB has tried to make everything possible viable. Even something like genestealers have had a nod......My point? hmmm what is my point? I think it's that Bretonnians can be what ever we think they should be. However why try to invent the wheel, when a good wheel inventor (probably better than us (or cyanide)) already invented a wheel. We have a look, a feel, history with Warhammer Bretonnians. With that, there's good plausible arguments that they wouldn't change. And good plausible arguments (mentioned above) that Knights would still exist.

So for me, I think Cyanide are doing the right thing by making the blitzer type players look like Knights however everybody has their own opinion on that.

[J_Bone]

Yeah but Goreman, that's the thread....it's not something that's deviated off topic

Actually, it has gone quite a way off topic. And I even tried to steer it back a couple of times to no avail.

I just asked what people thought of the roster itself... The whole Cyanide business, Blood Bowl books, etc. That's all just people bringing their own pet-peeves in. Put it this way, I asked the question and I stopped reading it about 8 pages ago. I just check back in every now and then to see how much more mental everybody has gone.

[sann0638]

I think the roster is fine. I like that it used wrestle and fend. I don't think it'll do particularly well, but being solid tier 2 is fine. I'm very impressed with the amount of thought that people are putting into the fluff, but I think the team is here to stay.

Aging more of a problem, but there's another thread for that.

[Darkson]

I just asked what people thought of the roster itself...

In that case, it's rubbish, and the sooner it's forgotten about the better.

[harvestmouse]

Yeah but Goreman, that's the thread....it's not something that's deviated off topic

Actually, it has gone quite a way off topic. And I even tried to steer it back a couple of times to no avail.

I just asked what people thought of the roster itself... The whole Cyanide business, Blood Bowl books, etc.

I don't see how it is off topic at all. You even mentioned the connection with Cyanide in the first post. Surely you knew what would happen if you brought a topic like this up?

It's all connected unless you want one word answers like 'good, bad, ok'. You distinctly asked about the deal with them and that they were coming to Cyanide. Over 11 pages you have a wealth of information of the pros and cons and......those outside of Cyanide want their say too.

Apart from the divulging to the Khorne issue, it's rigidly on topic, but that's me.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

I just asked what people thought of the roster itself...

In that case, it's rubbish, and the sooner it's forgotten about the better.

Tru dat. I like that Khorne and Brets are rubbish though - adding an overpowered race would be very uncool.