LRB favors AG teams (Rant)

[Zombie]

LRB favors AG teams (Rant)

No it doesn't. 3rd ed largely favored bashing teams. LRB is fair for all (well, except for gobbos and halflings, but that's good).

Besides, the two biggest changes in the LRB are less money and aging. Both work mosly against agility teams.

A quick look through most leagues will show that AG teams are generally placed higher than the ST ones.

Here's the list of the top 4 teams in my league:
1. Chaos dwarf
2. Chaos dwarf
3. Chaos
4. Undead

MB needs to go back to 3rd (or 'My AG skills are better than your ST skills'). Example: Dodge can be used during blocks OR dodging. MB has been reduced to ONLY being used during a block, if I want to have a skill effect a dodge, I need to get Tackle. Two skills to 'counter' the one.

What are you smoking? Tackle counters dodge in both its aspects. And mighty blow has never worked against dodging.

Bashy skills and actions are being reduced, while 'tarted rules like intercepting BEFORE a pass is thrown are being put in place to increase interceptions.

Passing has always worked that way, even though it's quite stupid. The more i read, the more i think you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Mirascael]

Yes, you are. Mighty Blow has never affected failed dodges. This has not changed from the previous edition to the current one.

Death Zone p12: "MIGHTY BLOW - Add +1 to ANY Armour and Injury rolls made by a player with this skill".

So you're saying that you've applied MB to failed Dodges until now?

The more i read, the more i think you have no idea what you're talking about.

Yep, that BullBear guy apparently ain't got no clue at all. Really sorry, BullBear - but even ( ) Zombie is right occasionally.

[Colin]

People tend to be nit-picking at various parts of his arguement but the main idea is one I have to agree with. You can't say (well I guess you can say anything you want) that AG teams are not better off in the change from 2ed to 3ed, with most actions requiring an AG roll, of course they have an advantage. And he is right about most of the skill changes seem to target the ST teams the most. I can't really agree with the statement someone made that 3ed favoured ST teams, not in my experience, 2ed did quite alot but with the change in 3ed (which is what LRB is based on) on having most actions take an AG roll to complete, AG teams got more of an advantage. Despite that, I think that the LRB rules are the most balance rules to date (though there still needs some tweaking). Whether or not a certain team finishes higher in a certain league doesn't really prove anything, there is a lot to do with luck of die rolls and skill of coach. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

[Zombie]

In vanilla 3rd ed, bashing teams had the upper hand, in that they were the only ones who could survive. In the 3rd ed that most people played, agility teams probably had the advantage (and i agree that wood elves were the best race back then).

Right now, i believe it's once again the bashing teams who have the advantage. Elves get more injuries against than bashing teams, and they get more aging effects. However, with the new winnings table, they don't get enough money to replace those players.

Also, as has already been said, the changes to hand off and leap (and many others as well) totally screwed up some of their most basic plays.

I agree that the LRB is the most balanced ruleset to date, but the balance is a little in favor of bashing teams right now, as can be seen from many leagues.

[wesleytj]

Don't forget Leap, that alone was huge in hamstringing Wardancers...

hehehehe like i said i could go on.

there's that and the whole forced catch issue. then there's the "hand off is an action" issue.

there are plenty.

[BullBear]

Woah, tough crowd!

I would first like to apologize for this little rant as I posted during a fit of insomnia at 4am. Second, it comes after seeing how powerful a team capable of getting Blodge across the board truly is. (In all fairness, the Amazon coach I played probably is the best in our league). If you can't knock 'em down, you can't cause an injury. I got to thinking how powerful this is, especially under an elf team, w/ a few sure hands sprinkled in. My current league is going into our 5th season. The first two were taken by AG teams, the third by a dwarf team that found a loop hole in a house rule, and the fourth by the Khemri - I'm sure I don't need to explain that. On rolling MB for failed dodges, my league old league did do it in third. Hey, I've already shown the page number the rule's on.

I'm not claiming that teams were balanced under 3rd, but I still stand by the fact that LRB is slanted more towards AG teams.

1) You can no longer stack ST skills
2) Sigurd's chart (if we can't stack anymore do we still need this?)
3) AG skills such as Dodge and Catch can be used under numerous actions whereas ST skills are hindered to specific actions. IMO,the 'value' of the skill sets is off.
4) IMEOY in place AND SPPs for fouling removed
5) IMO, the hand-off change effects ST teams more than AG as ST teams use it more than passes.


Later kids.
Rip away.

[Grumbledook]

TAKE MORE TACKLE!

[Mirascael]

(...) it comes after seeing how powerful a team capable of getting Blodge across the board truly is.

Tackle anybody?

a dwarf team that found a loop hole in a house rule

Just curious: What exactly were the loop hole and the house rule involved?

On rolling MB for failed dodges, my league old league did do it in third. Hey, I've already shown the page number the rule's on.

Reminds me of poxy's crusade somehow ("hand-off is a pass"). It never worked that way. BTW: Did those MB-players in the league of yours earn SPPs if failed Dodges resulted in casualities?

Sigurd's chart (if we can't stack anymore do we still need this?).

Fouls by Dirty Players breaking armours almost automatically and causing Death on 10-12?

4) IMEOY in place AND SPPs for fouling removed

There are some very enlightening threads about Fouling and SPPs, which I can really recommend!

[Balrog]

In 3rd edition Bashy teams were favoured, but under LRB it's pretty darn even - and this is a good thing! If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

-Balrog

[Zombie]

On rolling MB for failed dodges, my league old league did do it in third. Hey, I've already shown the page number the rule's on.

Well, your league was wrong.

Death Zone p12: "MIGHTY BLOW - Add +1 to ANY Armour and Injury rolls made by a player with this skill"

The problem is that the player with this skill wasn't the one making the armour and injury roll!

You're talking to one of the 3 guys who wrote the Oberwald, the document that gave precisions about every single rule in the game (well, every rule that needed precision anyway). Trust me, i know what i'm talking about.

IMO, the hand-off change effects ST teams more than AG as ST teams use it more than passes.

Again, proving that you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about. Do you even know what the change was that was done to hand offs? It totally destroyed the most basic of all elf attacks, the old move, pass, move, move, hand off, move, score play. It did almost nothing to strength teams because they almost never dodged a player before he received the ball, so didn't need to move before the catch.

[Sixpack595]

I agree with most of the original posters points. Most of the polls on this board seem to revolve around rules changes that hurt basher teams...fouling, PO, etc.

In our league, the botton half is all basher teams. Out of 20 teams in the bootom half, there is 1 WE, and 1 rat team. the rest are bruisers. The number 1 team is Amazons by a long margin.

[Ghost of Pariah]

I think what Bullbear is saying, and correct me if I am wrong BB, is that in the old version AG teamns were favored but the ST teams had the means to reign them in. Suffering more casualties kept alot of teams from growing too powerful (usually house rules helped too) but the LRB version the hitting power of the ST teams has been nerfed and suddenly we need new 'ageing' rules to do what the body count did before.
To me it's sad that so many coaches are unable to deal with the fact that players die in this game. That's why I say that no matter how well you design the ageing/exp rules most coaches won't be happy with them. Most of the coaches who like nerfed ST teams are the same coaches who will whine like babies when their one turn scorer gets a -1 to his AG.
Right now the rule makers are playing an idiot's game. People whine about the amount of death and hurt that can be laid down by a developed Undead team, so they nerf the rules. Then the same whiners see unlimited growth and start crying again that we need a system of attrition.
stupid.

[martynq]

Undead, Dwarves, and Orc's have all placed highly in out leauges, High Elf and Dark Elf teams have always placed low. If anything, it is our experiance that the two elf teams need help, not nerfing.

Agreed!!!

Martyn

[BullBear]

BullBear wrote:
On rolling MB for failed dodges, my league old league did do it in third. Hey, I've already shown the page number the rule's on.


Well, your league was wrong.

BullBear wrote:
Death Zone p12: "MIGHTY BLOW - Add +1 to ANY Armour and Injury rolls made by a player with this skill"


The problem is that the player with this skill wasn't the one making the armour and injury roll!

You're talking to one of the 3 guys who wrote the Oberwald, the document that gave precisions about every single rule in the game (well, every rule that needed precision anyway). Trust me, i know what i'm talking about.

Ok, fella see if you can follow this straight outta the BB Rulebook:

p8 - Tackle Zones - (on dodging) "If the dice roll is less than the required total, then the player is knocked down in the square he was dodging to and a roll must be made to see if he was injured (See Knock Downs & Injuries, below)."

p10 - Blocks - (on Knock Downs) - "A player that is knocked down should be placed on their side in the sqaure, face up. The player may be injured (see Injuries, below)."

p11 - Injuries - "Any player that is knocked over may be injured; the opposing coach is allowed to roll two dice and add their scores in an attempt to try to beat the knocked over player's armour value."

p20 - Mighty Blow - "Add +1 to any armour and injury rolls made by a player with this skill"

So, nowhere does the rulebook distinguish between block knockdowns and dodge knockdowns. It is very clear that the opposing coach rolls, AND clear that MB adds +1 to armour and injury. The OBERWALD means crap to me, especially 9yrs ago, as we used the rules stated in the game box.

Yes, I'm aware of elves passing/handing off, but since the new change has prevented that, it also stops ST teams from moving into favorable positions after the hand off, to help cover the new carrier. Have you ever played a ST team? You act like only elf teams used handoffs.

Pariah, you are absolutely correct.

[Bevan]

Out of 450 tournament games available for analysis two teams stand out as being significantly better than the others
Undead and Chaos Dwarf

Three teams are significanlty worse than the others
Goblin, Halfling and Dark Elves

These results are for low TR teams and elf teams may have more ability to improve in the long term, although the reduced cash intake may offset their SPPs. However, the original posting was based on the first round of games in the league.