Orc teams too powerful?

Heiper · Post by **Heiper** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 12:24 pm

Thansk DW, I find statistics intresting

. But I agree with you that there had been enough of those "X team is overpowered" the last month now. Lizzies, Dwarfs, Undead and now Orc, to me this seems like players are starting to have problems with the 2-1 tactic that these teams throw out. I could be wrong, but atm its more up to coach skill than what team is better, LRB is well balanced (the reason I don't like bringing in new undeads and remove the one we have now

)

roysorlie · Post by **roysorlie** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 12:30 pm

Deathwing wrote:
I'm not intending to be personally offensive to anybody here,

None taken

Deathwing wrote: For 'this team is unbalanced' read 'the coaches in our league have difficulty coping with x coach playing y team'.

Oh, I never said I had difficulties, I still win

just feel sorry for the other sods, who have to lose not only to me, but the orc teams aswell

Deathwing wrote: I'll put some tourney stats up later, as requested by Heiper.

That would be great. Thanks!

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 12:57 pm

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=stats&op=race

If you check out that page of race stats from fumbbl, it shows the orcs have lost more than they have won, thats with nearly 500 matches. Overall its just under 3000 matches in 5 weeks. I can tell you for certain though that all of the 15 official teams at the moment are balenced.

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 1:10 pm

I think basically at some point its been mentioned that all tream are overpowered.

Undead with 2 ST5 Mummies, Skaven 1 turn Scorers, Lizardmen 6 ST4 Saurus, plus all teams develop differently some are stronger earlier than later while others stronger at 200 plus TR. You just have to take the rough with the smooth.

I daresay the next overpowered teams if made official will be Pact teams, Khemri & Ogre.

At the end of the day if they are all overpowered then the must be balanced

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 9:22 pm

Deathwing wrote:I'm not intending to be personally offensive to anybody here, but I really am getting tired of reading that 'this-or-that team is unbalanced' based on their experiences in their own tabletop leagues, when there's a wealth of information out there that suggests otherwise.
For 'this team is unbalanced' read 'the coaches in our league have difficulty coping with x coach playing y team'.

We certainly have no trouble dealing with the orc team in our league, as it's coached by a girl who's playing blood bowl for the fist time. But you have to admit (even Galak does) that on paper, orcs have a lot going for them and not much going against them, especially with 4 goblins.

Of course, a good coach will always beat a good team, so the balance can't be that bad. But orcs are clearly the best (or at least one of the best) race around, and the fact that this is so clear on paper means that there's at least a little balance problem.

If orcs had no goblins, i wouldn't have a problem with their roster.

BullBear · Post by **BullBear** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 9:40 pm

After 4 seasons of play, my league has yet to even see an Orc team make the final. They're hardly dominate. In fact, the only constant has been the coaches in the final NOT the teams.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 10:21 pm

narkotic wrote:You should not discuss about an orc team someone will have at the end of the league season.
No starting orc team will have the line up you suggested, unless you want to play with 10-11 players, 1RR and a crap FF and no healer. Believe me white that line-up you will have a hard time.
But when you start with a moderate line-up and begin building your team as you suggested, the other teams will build up too.
When you reached your fav. line-up you will face Skaven teams with 3 one-turn scoring guter runners, Elves/Dark Elves who pass a long bomb on a 2+ etc. The orc team is good bc. its heavy pounding without being too slow, and has much flexibility in position players choice. But if you let them beat you into oblivion, either you screwed all you blocks or you you should change you tactics for your agile team.

By the way, I'm scared all the time when playing BB (except against Gobbos)

Well, actually, orcs can start just about the best 11 guys of anybody with a tr 100 team, and still do ok with ff and rr.

4bob-320
4bli-320
1thr-70
1line-50
1 gob-40
2rr-120
8ff-80

that's 100tr. if you don't like starting with a gob (which I do, with dodge and stunty they can really be a useful addition on a new orc team), then switch him out for 1less ff and another line orc...still a nasty team. all the important position players are there (bobs and blitzers) and all you really need to buy are an apoth and an ogre (then a few line orcs to fill the bench if you want)...you can do that in a half dozen games or so.

Now, I'm not saying they're overpowered. They're good. They should be. But well-coached skaven and elves can outrun them...Dwarf teams can outhit them early since they almost all have block and thick skull. Chaos teams can outstrength them if they use beastmen well. And so on. It's all about the coaching.

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 10:41 pm

I'll settle this...

YES! They are too powerful. They are hereby banned!
And before anyine else asks...

Dwarfs- Too skilled! Banned
Lizardmen- Saurus are too strong! Banned
Undead- They earn too many casualties! Banned!
Wood Elfs- Wardancers are overpowered! Banned!
High Elfs- Too much agility! Banned!
Dark Elfs- Witch elfs are too crazy! Banned!
Amazons- Too much Blodge! Banned!
Norse- They all get Block! Banned!
Skaven- One turn scores! Banned!
Chaos- Chaos warriors...nuff said! Banned!
Chaos Dwarfs- Bull Centaurs have no negative traits! Banned!
Humans- Too well rounded! Banned!

That leaves goblins and halflings. Okay, everyone happy?

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 10:52 pm

Pariah wrote:I'll settle this...

YES! They are too powerful. They are hereby banned!
And before anyine else asks...

Dwarfs- Too skilled! Banned
Lizardmen- Saurus are too strong! Banned
Undead- They earn too many casualties! Banned!
Wood Elfs- Wardancers are overpowered! Banned!
High Elfs- Too much agility! Banned!
Dark Elfs- Witch elfs are too crazy! Banned!
Amazons- Too much Blodge! Banned!
Norse- They all get Block! Banned!
Skaven- One turn scores! Banned!
Chaos- Chaos warriors...nuff said! Banned!
Chaos Dwarfs- Bull Centaurs have no negative traits! Banned!
Humans- Too well rounded! Banned!

That leaves goblins and halflings. Okay, everyone happy?

Actually, if all that's left is gobs and halflings, gobs are clearly overpowered...more MA, more AV, better big guys, secret weapons. What do the flings have going for them? They can freeboot the hotpot.

Man there's an issue here!

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 10:56 pm

Shoot! You're right!
Goblins- Banned!

From now on all leagues are to play only halflings. But nobody is allowed to progress because that gives and unfair advantage over teams who did win!

All games will be played with straight 100 TR halflings.

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 11:01 pm

halfies can use throw team mate and score in 1 turn too!!!!

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 11:06 pm

All Big Guys and the skill Throw Team Mate-BANNED!

MistWraith · Post by **MistWraith** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 11:42 pm

In our league we have a player that started with 4 BOB's, 4 Blitzers, 2 lineorcs, 3 re-rolls, and a fan factor of 8. He is currently 7 and 0 and at the top of the league standings. He has a very nasty team, but not as nasty as the undead team from last season, or the wood elves from the one befor that.

Also, he seems to be bottom feeding off new teams/weak ones. And, none of the other orc teams are doing so good.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 12:02 am

MistWraith wrote:In our league we have a player that started with 4 BOB's, 4 Blitzers, 2 lineorcs, 3 re-rolls, and a fan factor of 8. He is currently 7 and 0 and at the top of the league standings. He has a very nasty team, but not as nasty as the undead team from last season, or the wood elves from the one befor that.

Also, he seems to be bottom feeding off new teams/weak ones. And, none of the other orc teams are doing so good.

Well i hate to break it to him, but that's an illegal team. You have to start with at least 11 players.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 12:08 am

Ok, just out of interest, and I know this doesn't prove anything. A few of these results will be Orc v. Orc; and there may be a disproportionate amount of rookies/inexperienced coaches fielding them etc, just FWIW anyway, here's how Orcs fared in the last 3 big European tournies:

At Res:
16 Orc teams from a field of 80. 3 of those 16 won 3 of their 4 games and either drew or lost by 1 their 4th. So 13 of 16 only won a max of 2 games.
Totals: W24 T(or L by 1) 21, L19.
The 19 'losses' are by 2 or more TDs, I have no way of knowing what the tie/loss by 1 ratio is.
At Spiky
4 Orc teams from a field of 38. They came in 10th, 22nd, 28th and 38th.
Totals W9 T3 L12
At The Dutch Open:
5 Orc teams in a field of 40
Totals W8 T5 L12

Grand Totals:
W42 T8 L43.
Plus 21 unknown which are either Ties or Losses.

Personally that's a little harsh IMO, and you might get a better picture if you discounted the guys propping up the tourney results, there has to be the newbie/rookie element.
Even so, if you take a look at the various Pbem leagues around as well as Christer's FUMBBL data, then I don't think you're getting a picture of a 'broken' team.