Drawing the line and probabilities

Post by **Dave** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 3:50 pm

and still just 2 cas ...

Cervidal · Post by **Cervidal** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 7:31 pm

Quote:

"Well I've been extremely lucky on both my current ECBBL teams. I have a High Elf team with 2 +ST line elves and 3 guards after 16 games. I also have an Orc team with 4 +AG, 2 +ST and 4+ MA on various players after 27 games. All the skill rolls have been made in front of witnesses. "

If those are the only unusual upgrades your team has, and you are getting a bunch of SPPs, then you are still probably only getting something unusual one out of every four rolls, maybe slightly more or less.

Also, most of the examples I see here are coaches running one team, for 10 to 20 games.

Someone mentioned it as a sour grapes attitude. Yes, that is probably part of it. The statistics person in me, however, just has difficulties grasping of coaches rolling doubles or stats increases on half their dice rolls on all 3-5 teams they have in a league setting.

Thor · Post by **Thor** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 5:30 pm

Leave your 6Ds at home the next time you play, so you have to use/share your opponents 6Ds for that game. That way all the rolls for that game will be made with the same dice (fair). I think something is suspicious if your opponent won't let you roll his/her dice.

Sixpack595 · Post by **Sixpack595** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 6:00 pm

No problem...I have plenty of dice. I am one of those guys who have their hot dice...and no one else touches them. They are clear, unloaded dice that allways seem to pull through for me when I need them to. They may not roll over average, but I nearly allways get 5s or 6s for my take at the end. Yes I'm being superstitious, but unless the rules say otherwise I'm the only one to use those dice. I don't think the issue is dice, I think its cheaters. Some guys roll in front of thier opponant, then go home and put in whatever they want. I can't remember what guys have block on my team let alone who has +1 str on another team if I don't play him for another 2 months.

Thor wrote:Leave your 6Ds at home the next time you play, so you have to use/share your opponents 6Ds for that game. That way all the rolls for that game will be made with the same dice (fair). I think something is suspicious if your opponent won't let you roll his/her dice.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 6:24 am

As far I as a commissioner am concerned, everyone uses those small white GW dice, and both coaches use the same dice in the game.
Superstitious or not, using specific dice smells like fraud to me. No offence meant to anyone who does so,naturally. However, my point is that loaded dice are the only way of cheating if you're rolling in front of others. Denying that option from the weak of mind is the better option to me, as then there shouldn't be even speculations about somebody cheating.

What comes to rolling techniques, they are possible, but extremely hard to learn. Therefore longer rolls are adviced over just dropping the die.

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 7:08 am

A friend of mine have a DE Team like that. I hate it

For myself, i dont do much of ST+1 but a lot of AG+1 or AG+2

Sixpack595 · Post by **Sixpack595** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 7:56 am

I see what you are saying, but checking for loaded dice is fairly easy. Clear dice make loading them even harder. I think the honesty of the players is the problem... not dice. If you want to meke using the little white dice a requirement, I could just swap in loaded ones for my rolls at will with a bit of sleight of hand. Whats next? Casino style dice replacement, and pit bosses supervising? I figure clear dice are better than opaque ones any day. I also think there are guys who will roll a 3&4 but end up with a strength increase no matter what dice you use.

[quote="Mestari"]Superstitious or not, using specific dice smells like fraud to me. No offence meant to anyone who does so,naturally. However, my point is that loaded dice are the only way of cheating if you're rolling in front of others. Denying that option from the weak of mind is the better option to me, as then there shouldn't be even speculations about somebody cheating.
quote]

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 11:14 am

Hehe i just got some clear green precision cut casino dice in the post this morning. Brand new ones as well rather than marked used ones, can't wait to get them on the pitch.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:55 pm

Ooooo, casino dice *drool*. I need a set to go with my handmade-in-vegas custom clay checks.

I'm always in favour of both opponents bringing a pair of dice and just mixing and matching which ones you roll with throughout the game. That's for tournaments anyway - I trust the ECBBL boys not to cheat. Well, all but one of them anyway.

Speaking of Ian's skill rolls, I think you'll find that +stat/doubles players tend to appear on developed rosters a bit more than averages would suggest simply because they are the players that tend to attract the attention of apothecaries. They're also not as likely to get replaced.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:57 pm

I got 6 and will take them to amsterdam, so i could happily let you use a couple, they are a tad sharp tho ;]

CyberHare · Post by **CyberHare** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 12:03 pm

Sixpack595 wrote:No problem...I have plenty of dice. I am one of those guys who have their hot dice...and no one else touches them.

Sixpack, if I was sitting across the table from you and you refused to let me use your dice I would politely get up, pack my team away and leave the table. I would then forcefully persue efforts to have you thrown out of the league. I'm sorry but no ones dice are sacred and no one else is going to curse them if they touch them. Get over it.

Dice are a BIG pet peeve of mine. I've been saying for a long time that there needs to be a standard for dice used at tournaments and a proper way to throw them. It is soooooooo annoying when your opponent just picks up his dice into his palm and then just drops them.

Not throwing ones dice propely is a BIG negative when I consider points for sportsmanship at the end of a tournament.

Oh, and having clear dice means absolutely nothing when it comes to fixed dice. All that means is that the dice have nothing "visible" inside them. There are plenty of clear things you can put in there to weight them and many other ways to fix dice.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:22 pm

We have a clause in the ECBBL rules that a dice roll doesn't count unless the dice have been rolled, not dropped or spun. I really dont' like sputnik's shaking cup, but at least you know he's rolled a random number =)

I, too, am rather skeptical of people who won't let other people use their dice. There's one very good reason for this - if you are convinced that they roll better then you are either just superstitious, in which case it doesn't matter at all, or they are imbalanced, intentionally or not, in which case you're cheating, the end.

In a tournament I'll put two dice on the table and mix and match with my opponent's dice as we play.

Indigo · Post by **Indigo** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 11:17 am

roster forging REALLY pi$$es me off - I played a welf coach with my chaos - stuffed him 3-0 with 5-0 casualties to me... yet after the game he somehow had 4 star player rolls to make?!

ffs, even with the mvp he could have only had one MAX

simple solution - not going to play him anymore. neither will the rest of the people who saw him do it...

Sixpack595 · Post by **Sixpack595** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 7:01 am

TH.Lapin wrote:Sixpack, if I was sitting across the table from you and you refused to let me use your dice I would politely get up, pack my team away and leave the table. I would then forcefully persue efforts to have you thrown out of the league.

I'm glad you're not in my league, I'd gladly give you the forfiet and laugh in your face (or spit in it depending on your tone) for your attempt at getting me thrown out. If there are rules in place, fine, no problems here. If there are no rules providing for shared dice, feel free to forfit. I realize some people are too insecure to admit they got beat fairly, but coming up with loaded dice conspiracy theories is just sad. Very few leagues in my experience have cared if dice are shared. I have no problem if they require it, I play by the rules. I do not pack up my toys and go home if I don't like the way someone plays within the rules.

CyberHare · Post by **CyberHare** » Sat Feb 01, 2003 1:12 am

I never said anything about a forfit, the game just would have never existed as far as I or anyone else in the league was concerned. At any rate that would be pretty academic at that point as your reaction to the situation only proves to strengthen my point about the use of dice.

You are ready to laugh (or spit as it would seem??) in my face for asking to use your "unfixed dice". I never said I was being beaten in the game. I never said that we had even started a game. But your dice are that sacred that no one else can touch them, seems fishy to me.

It is more than likely true that most leagues don't have rules about the use of dice. I'm sure they get along quite well without them. But I'm also certain that in any league, anywhere, spitting in ones face for wanting to use the same dice would be gravely looked upon. Your league may vary, but I highly doubt it.

All this comes back to my original point. There need to be set standards for the dice that can be used in a game, especially in a tournament setting. As you say, if there were rules gouverning the dice you would play by them. All I'm trying to say is that there most definetly should be rules to gouvern the dice. Now having said that it would be ubsurd to believe any league would follow an official set of dice rules just as most leagues don't follow the 4 minute rule or the GW only painted fig rule. But in a tournament setting, where you now have a NAF rating on the line, where some of the people attending have traveled 500 or more kilometers to attend the event, I don't think it would be to much to expect everyone to abide by a few rules concerning the dice.