Nerf it!! or is it? Re: Dwarfs

[Juriel]

S4 Frenzy Juggs Slayers.... hahahah no.
Also, your Longbeards are incredibly cheap for what they bring to the table - 10k more than a Zombie, come on.
Blitzers need to be MA6 to do their new blitzing/Tackle-positioning role in any capacity.

While I agree with lessening the Tackle spam, once you start changing them up, you need to do something about their incredibly restricted options.

[Thadrin]

S4 Frenzy Juggs Slayers.... hahahah no.
Also, your Longbeards are incredibly cheap for what they bring to the table - 10k more than a Zombie, come on.
Blitzers need to be MA6 to do their new blitzing/Tackle-positioning role in any capacity.

While I agree with lessening the Tackle spam, once you start changing them up, you need to do something about their incredibly restricted options.

They're not cheap. They're a Lineorc with block in exchange for 1 AG and 1 MA.
S access is going to be worth F-all because they're going to be the same nightmare to skill up Blockers already are.

[SunDevil]

Do whatever you want to the Dorf roster as long as you give that Deathroller to the Goblins.

[Glowworm]

Do whatever you want to the Dorf roster as long as you give that Deathroller to the Goblins.

+1

And as a goblin coach I hate Norse followed by CD's more than Dwarves...but thats just me

leave em alone I say, or once you've fixed em fix Woodelves

[Thadrin]

Gobbos have a Deathroller. Its called the fanatic.

[huff]

I quite like this roster (well I did design it). I tried to go for short term nerfish and long term buff (St4 Slayers). With the starting tackle going from about 6 to 2, those matches vs them with Zons and stunties won't be so one-sided on paper.

[SunDevil]

Gobbos have a Deathroller. Its called the fanatic.

Thadrin, stop trying to bring logic into a Goblin discussion!

They should also have the Deathroller to make them the only BB team with rostered SWs. The dorfs don't need it and it makes perfect thematic sense for the Gobs. Though I do love the Fanatic as well.

[lerchey]

Hi All,

I've been away for a while... nice to be back on.

In any case, I tried a modified Dwarf roster last year that seemed to work nicely. Reduced the initial effectiveness of the Blockers, kept the current basic flavor and most of the play style, and gave the Blockers more to spend SPPs on than just stacking guard, at least for a while.

My fix was simple. I removed Block as a starting skill from the Blockers.

Before people who think that the name "Blocker" requires the "Block" skill, hear me out. Yes, Tackle is nasty against 'zons and even for that matter against other high-dodge teams like stunties. But by removing Block and retaining Tackle, the Blockers are now much more vulnerable to blocks against them, and still retain a "character" of being anti-AG team. Anything that dodges regularly has an issue, to some degree. But now the Blockers have to earn Block, and make choices between Block and Guard, and other useful skills. Further, the "line" doesn't just sit and dole out 1 die blocks all day long knowing that they can only fully fail on a skull.

This change was used in a half a dozen or so games. The Dwarves (with adjustments for player ability and die rolls) did about as well as they normally do, but had to be played much more carefully. Also, I did not change the price of the Blockers.

Seemed like an easy fix, cut some spamming, and made them a more interesting team to play.

[spubbbba]

70K is way too much for a player with awful stats and 1 very mediocre and another sitiational skill. You’d need to drop them to 50K as they are now comparable to an Orc Lineman. +MA and AG compared to takle, thick skull and strength access.

[Juriel]

You’d need to drop them to 50K as they are now comparable to an Orc Lineman. +MA and AG compared to takle, thick skull and strength access.

Except for the little thing that for their intended role (tie up the opponent), Thick Skull and S access and Tackle are a ton more useful than +MA and +AG.

Lineorcs are a bad comparison point in any case, seeing how they're magnificent for their value.

[spubbbba]

Strength access isn’t a lot of use when the player has no reliable way of getting spp’s. Tackle is great against some teams and worthless against others so is very hard to cost.

Yeah, the linemen are such magnificent value that Orc coaches are always raving about how great they are. By removing block you relegate the longbeard to the role of fodder, whilst they are quite good at that, compared to a zombie you get +AV and thick skull but lose regen. However you are forgetting the synergy with the rest of the team. Orcs will have 4 blitzers and 4 black orcs as well as a thrower to handle the ball and possibly a troll. Undead have the best “big guys” in the game along with 4 ghouls and 4 wights. Dwarfs are stuck with only 2 mediocre blitzers, 2 runners who are decent ball carriers but not great at much else and 2 slayers, useful to make up for the lack of ST but can be a liability with frenzy.

So if you nerf the longbeards then the team as a whole is much weaker, probably border tier 2. Dwarfs are ahead of the bash curve starting with block so can get guard whilst the other bashers get Block and then MB when the others go for guard. But once they have those 2 skills in mass amount they run out of options pretty quickly

[Juriel]

Undead have the best “big guys” in the game along with 4 ghouls and 4 wights.

2 Wights.

So if you nerf the longbeards then the team as a whole is much weaker, probably border tier 2.

You haven't even seen tier 2, then. :p

Dwarfs are ahead of the bash curve starting with block so can get guard whilst the other bashers get Block and then MB when the others go for guard. But once they have those 2 skills in mass amount they run out of options pretty quickly

Fend, Stand Firm, Dauntless, Grab. Sure, none of these are Block/Guard/MB, but then nothing is like the holy trinity.

But, I do agree that a nerf to longbeards should be accompanied by a buff elsewhere. Like those abominable Blitzers, they need love. The team needs more options, something interesting (ST4 Slayers, not it).

[Citizen Nev]

As an experienced Dwarf coach I agree with the premise that Dwarves perhaps start a bit too strong and suffer at the higher TV's against certain teams.

Removing Block from the Longbeards whilst keeping Tackle and thick skull might be a good idea for a short term nerf and will move Guard and MB further down the priority list.

I've never really had a problem with beating agility teams but at high TV's most othe rbash teams have Guard but also the STR to back it up. THIS is where Dwarve struggle. If we were to nerf the Longbeards is there something we can do to bridge this gap at High TV's?

Increasing MV and AG isn't very Dwarflike, and STR increases seems a bit too much. Perhaps Dauntless on the Blitzers too? This works if we change the Slayers from having Block to Juggs as they'd be dissimilar enough.

I'm not sure how much this chnage might affect high TV Dwarves, but raising stats doesn't seem like the answer

[lerchey]

Just kind of musing at the keyboard here...

I find it kind of odd that many people think that Dwarves start out too strong (hey, I agree with that part), but then when someone suggests a nerf (and I'm not the first one to come up with ideas on how to do this) that others will will then say that they're under-costed, or that they need some other buff. Not poking fun at any of you, mind - you do have some solid arguments for what you've said - I just find it to be odd.

To further Citezen Nev's comments, maybe the Dwarves do need something that will help them at higher TVs, but not push them back into being too much at low TVs.

Some musings on this as well.

First, I'd definitely pull Block from the ... um... Blockers. And to make others happy, drop the price to 60.

Next, I would suggest that Runners be bumped to AV 9. Makes them a tad more survivable, and they ARE the teams only real ball carriers.

Next-next, I like the idea of removing Block as a starting skill for the Slayers and giving them Juggernaught instead. It makes them somewhat less effective, but much more interesting, and Juggs fits nicely with their description.

Finally, although it will seem odd, I would consider removing Secret Weapon from the Death Roller. Most people agree that it's kind of a white elephant. While the stats look impressive, all of the times that I've taken one it's been mediocre at best, though it is good as a position denial (tying things up) piece. In justification, the Pogoer has a pogo stick and is no longer secret (yes, I know, comparing the two is not really quite valid, but the concept is there - objects is objects) and a lot of other teams get to buy Big Guys for their teams.

Not sure if I'd modify the costs of the Runners or Slayers, from a playability standpoint, but would not argue against increasing the cost of the Roller.