Poll: spps for crowd and fouling cas: USE THIS POLL!!

[wesleytj]

My concern here is that it's been tested and it was a problem, and that's why we _don't_ have SPPs for fouling. See-sawing back and forth really accomplishes nothing.

Not really Marcus. So many other relevant variables were changed at the same time that it's not a very good comparison...

Every scientific experiment has a control group where they change nothing, and a test group where they change one thing so that they can pinpoint the differences between the 2 groups on the changed element. they try REAL hard to hold every other possible variant between the 2 groups constant so the data isn't skewed by some unaccounted-for force.

We certainly never had that here. We changed 10 things at once about fouling, not one. If we were to change one back (giving spps for fouling) but leave the rest alone (igmeoy, dp rules, etc) you'd get a clearer picture of how much difference the spps would make on their own.

I'm suggesting that the current rules (*while good in general and helpful overall*) have gone a little too far and have created certain team imbalances, not to mention needless exceptions, by not allowing spps for some types of cas. It's not see-sawing, it's having the guts to admit you've done something unnecessary and fixing the error.

I would suggest that the fact you never saw a problem with SPPs for fouling is that your league is not full of idiots who don't know how to do anything but foul. The reason you dont' see any players like that any more is because we scared them off. Most of the ones still around are still off playing 3rd edition with SPPs for fouling.

Again, no set of rules will protect you from idiots...maybe you should change who you play.

If it's not a problem in your league, then why not house rule it? .

the question i guess boils down to this: which situation is the minority situation, and which is the majority situation. The majority situation should be the standard official rule, and the minority should apply a house rule. I know the polls here aren't official, but the poll on here suggests that less than 50% of the people are happy with the rule as is...with no spps for either fouling or crowd cas....something to think about.

The rule's been tried one way, found to be a problem, tried another way and most players like it. .

You sure? Sounds to me like you're just taking yourself and replacing it with "most players"

Python:

I see your point about player development but, really, there are other ways to advance a team.

Well that depends largely on the team now doesn't it? some teams have a much easier time than others at finding alternate ways of garnering spps. hence the imbalance. imbalance is the one thing is this game that i can't and won't sit for. (except stunties of course)

You can't let the idiots build mega player killers and nothing else just so blackorcs can get a skill. I've been playing without SPPs for fouling for years now and I am yet to see team development skewed against power teams.

I just generally don't play the idiots at all. That way they can't build anything. Seriously we don't seem to have that problem in our store... most of their customers are college students, and I'm betting most of the ppl you are having problems with are more like 15. We had that type in the league once, and we kicked him out when we caught him cheating on skill rolls and some dice and stuff. Maybe there's a lesson for ya there.

I think that, in your instance, getting behind the EXP rule might be a good idea. It solves both problems.

Actually I'm leaning more towards throwing ageing (and all premutations thereof) out completely. all it does is piss people off.

For the sake of the coaches who were made to hate playing their favourite game, house rule it and let it rest at that.

Please don't think i'm trying to drive you from the game, or that I am trying to make your life miserable or something. I just really see a problem in the current rules....and for the moment I do house rule it. However, I run a league in a game store, and for obvious reasons of simplicity they try real hard to keep house rules down to a bare minimum. So I'd MUCH rather see the official rule be reversed. And as I've pointed out, less than 50% of the people here like the current system)

[wesleytj]

if player turnover from casualties would take care of itself explain the massive rated teams that you could build in 3rd edition?

well we have other ways to fix that now...most importantly a new winnings table, no cards (those money and free player cards made a HUGE diff) and ff caps.

[Marcus]

The rule's been tried one way, found to be a problem, tried another way and most players like it. .

You sure? Sounds to me like you're just taking yourself and replacing it with "most players"

Er, no, was going by the poll. Only crowd cas + no are you nuts = majority. Also counting the ECBBL ppl who, from league discussions are almost unanimously against it.

cf: your comment about control groups. Loading polls with 3 yes answers....

[wesleytj]

The rule's been tried one way, found to be a problem, tried another way and most players like it. .

You sure? Sounds to me like you're just taking yourself and replacing it with "most players"

Er, no, was going by the poll. Only crowd cas + no are you nuts = majority. Also counting the ECBBL ppl who, from league discussions are almost unanimously against it.

cf: your comment about control groups. Loading polls with 3 yes answers....

actually that's a BAD thing...it dilutes the "yes" people. the point is even tho there's only 1 no answer they still aren't 50%.

but yes only crowd cas + are you nuts is a majority...however crowd cas are part of my point too...my point is simply that many people aren't happy with the current rules about cas one way or another.

[Zombie]

Even if only one in ten league has a problem with fouling, it's that one league that must be taken into account if we want rules that work for everyone.

It's BS statements like this that have caused all the problems we have today. I don't care if it's Blood Bowl or society. One person/league/...ect having a problem with something is not any indication that something need to be done.

One person is not an indication, i agree. Thousands of persons is another story. One in ten league means thousands of people.

And what problems exactly do we have today? The game sure works much better than it did under 3rd ed. It's much more ironed out.

[Skummy]

3rd edition fouling wound up dominating every league I've been a part of. Promoting a system in which Dirty Players are essential for a team's development is bad for the game. I much prefer the current rules.

[Sixpack595]

if player turnover from casualties would take care of itself explain the massive rated teams that you could build in 3rd edition?

Sounds like you needed more bruisers. It was rare for us to get past 51 SPPs on a guy from bounties, fouls, and just plain beat downs.

[Zombie]

not at all...i play in a very violent rl league. i've said as much several times... we didn't have that silly igmeoy rule in 3rd ed remember?

That tells me that your league is NOT violent. If it were, it would never have survived without IGMEOY. Ours wouldn't have.

Anyway, a black orc with just blk is ok on a tr 120 team, or even a tr 150 team, but by tr 170 or so, if most of your black orcs still just have block thats a serious problem. They should have guard and mightyblow by tr 200.

I don't think so. A ST4 player with block is a force to be reckoned with even on a TR 200 team.

well in the brave new world of not much fouling, elves get slowed by aging more than death...my current dark elf team has had 1 death in 12 games. !!!! It wasn't that long ago that I thought 1 a game was about average and just part of playing an elf team. If a guy died early on in the game i never apoth'd them unless they were important. Now I feel dumb if I waste it.

Again, i believe that's a problem with your league, not the game in general. Over here, elves who meet undead or chaos dwarf die plenty.

[Zombie]

the question i guess boils down to this: which situation is the minority situation, and which is the majority situation. The majority situation should be the standard official rule, and the minority should apply a house rule. I know the polls here aren't official, but the poll on here suggests that less than 50% of the people are happy with the rule as is...with no spps for either fouling or crowd cas....something to think about.

Again (and i really hope this is the last time i have to say this), you need to separate the two topics. I for one think that crowed CAS if you break armour is a good idea, but that has absolutely nothing to do with fouling CAS. 60% of the people right now believe that fouling is better off without CAS, and i garanty that this number will go up as people get used to the new rule.

[GalakStarscraper]

the question i guess boils down to this: which situation is the minority situation, and which is the majority situation. The majority situation should be the standard official rule, and the minority should apply a house rule. I know the polls here aren't official, but the poll on here suggests that less than 50% of the people are happy with the rule as is...with no spps for either fouling or crowd cas....something to think about.

Again (and i really hope this is the last time i have to say this), you need to separate the two topics. I for one think that crowed CAS if you break armour is a good idea, but that has absolutely nothing to do with fouling CAS. 60% of the people right now believe that fouling is better off without CAS, and i garanty that this number will go up as people get used to the new rule.

Its a rare thing but Wes ... I fully agree with Zombie here. Zombie has run some polls and when something he thought would be true showed a majority against him he fessed up. No one who understands anything about stats is going to agree with you that a majority want the fouling rules to get SPPs from this poll. The Yes Crowd line is a really a whole another topic and has only occupied a few posts of this 10 page topic. Using it is spurious at best; outright deceptive at worst.

If you want to argue about what you want fine and I like the discussion and the points that you are trying to raise ... but I agree with Zombie please stop trying to convince those of us that play with stats for living that the poll is on your side. Its not and it really does detract from your argument.

Galak

[Zombie]

Galak, what does "fess up" mean? I'm not familiar with that term and couldn't find it in the dictionary.

[Ghost of Pariah]

"fessed" from "confessed"
Midwestern American for "to admit to something"

"The boy fessed up that he had, in fact, broken the window."

[Zombie]

Thanks. No wonder it wasn't in the dictionary!

[GalakStarscraper]

Thanks. No wonder it wasn't in the dictionary!

Sorry about that, Zombie ... thanks Pariah. I was raised in the country and every know and then its leaks through.

I got a post from Southern Georgia made on another discussion group once because a "ya all" slipped into my typing and he thought I was making fun him.

Galak

[sean newboy]

If u cant find it in print young padawan, look online, i bet u could have found the definition there somewhere. Contains all things for all people the Internet does.