A Call for Calm

[voyagers_uk]

hmmm, I appreciate discussion can sometimes get heated and attempts at moderation can be treated with contempt.

You keep referencing prison guards (Apparently my own work is comparable by you to that of a guard from Auschwitz).

Ideas are not free, they have consequences and blaming a person you shout at from not covering their ears or someone you make rude signs to from not blinding themselves shows a continued arrogance that I do find quite offensive.

I however will try to rise above this and continue to perform my unappreciated (in one case hated) role to the best of my ability.

it is obvious to me that you prize your intelligence so I would challenge you to finding a way to moderate yourself in a way that we seem unable to perform without raising your ire.

I am not sure bringing down a website is an appropriate response if you fail to find your correct balance, but I am sure you will endeavor to succeed as after all we are all watching you now.

Can you bring out the best in yourself or will you be beset by the issues that all moderators face and be left despising your own paltry efforts to keep you in line.

good luck VM

[VoodooMike]

Ideas are not free, they have consequences and blaming a person you shout at from not covering their ears or someone you make rude signs to from not blinding themselves shows a continued arrogance that I do find quite offensive.

I'm not particularly concerned with what you find offensive - as I say, it is a subjective thing. It is absolutely within your capacity as a grown man to not read things you don't want to read, and to not look at things you don't want to look at. As it stands, you're reading things and looking at them because you want to do so - you're simply declaring that it is somehow reasonable to control the world such that you can read everything and find nothing you object to, and look everywhere but see nothing you don't want to see.

As for "Ideas are not free, they have consequences"... I suppose that's true, but I'd say that responding to ideas with forceful suppression has never worked out well for anyone in the history of humankind. Typically it means someone is responding to the ideas like an animal, not a man, lashing out with claws rather than refuting it with better ideas.

it is obvious to me that you prize your intelligence so I would challenge you to finding a way to moderate yourself in a way that we seem unable to perform without raising your ire.

I obviously don't consider myself in need of moderation. Consider this: what is the worst case scenario? That I make what you consider to be an ass of myself by the things I say and people thus discount the things I say? Do you imagine you, or anyone else is going to burst into flames when they read what I say? Will they turn to drugs and devil worship because of the mental trauma? The only time words hurt someone is when you throw the book in which they're contained at someone's head.. or occasionally when they are used in a deliberately false manner to cause physical or financial damage to someone.

Instead, I challenge you to facilitate conversation using your own words, and to lead using example rather than jack boots. That idea is free.

I am not sure bringing down a website is an appropriate response if you fail to find your correct balance, but I am sure you will endeavor to succeed as after all we are all watching you now.

No doubt collective peer pressure will lead to my conformity to your expectations, yes! At the end of the day we can only ever truly control ourselves. What's subjective, of course, is whom that lesson is really meant for.

[voyagers_uk]

I am pleased that you are continuing the nazi theme, it only compounds my own feelings on this. It is interesting to see how you excuse yourself from any impact you have on others by passing responsibility for their own fate directly into their own hands, is that not how those very same "troops" felt?

I could mark your posts as foe, but that would kind of defeat the purpose of moderation, abandoning the forum members to your depredations would be the reverse of moderation.

I doubt peer pressure impacts you much, you would have to care what "they" think, you have divorced yourself from that throughout the recent threads.

but if re-direction is what you seek (which I doubt), be seen to add value to conversations. I know that is a difficult thing when you deem "value" to be subjective. try. I am not afraid of having content here that I personally object to. my own feelings are immaterial.

the thrown book metaphor as opposed to words hurting is again an interesting divorce from reality with children committing suicide following Internet bullying, mere words. yet young lives end.

as for me leading by example, I have done that for years on this very site. Have you been constructive or anti-establishment during your sojourn within our virtual home?

all I have ever asked is "play nice", as Deathwing says this is a game played by people who enjoy the social interaction with like minded friends, sharing that with maybe a drink and some food. acclaiming the lucky and unlucky alike.

is there anyone here who you would consider "like-minded"?

[Lychanthrope]

Mike, I understand, at least in part where you are coming from, but hear some wisdom I've learned the hard way.

When I was growing up my family solved disagreements with loud cussing and swearing fights. They were viscious and personal. Suprisingly, it worked for them. At the end hugs were made, feelings restored, and problem solved. The woman I feel in love with and married came from a family that NEVER raised it's voice. My wife thinks her parents had disagreements, but does not ever remember seeing one. It was handled quietly and away from the children, always. As you can imagine the first year of out marriage was problematic. It involved a lot of yelling and crying. I "lost" all of those first arguements because I felt bad that I made her cry. Then I "realized" that crying was a winning tactic. How unfair, noone crys and gets to win, that's not going to happen! Also, when the arguements were over things were never OK. It took time to repair. Needless to say things had to change, and unfortunely I was going to have to do the lion's share of the changing. We are still married, 29 yrs. I still get emotional, but I know I have to keep it in check. She does her best to not take it personal. I've also learned that her family was closer to the norm then mine. Society really does demand that you express yourself very calmly and quietly, or you lose, even if your point was correct. It's a long road. Good luck.

[VoodooMike]

I am pleased that you are continuing the nazi theme, it only compounds my own feelings on this. It is interesting to see how you excuse yourself from any impact you have on others by passing responsibility for their own fate directly into their own hands, is that not how those very same "troops" felt?

I think where we disagree is on the type of impact words and expression have on people. I absolutely accept responsibility for the things I say - it is inherent to expression! Where we disagree is on what an appropriate response to ideas and words we don't like is. I'm not using strong psychic powers to alter people's minds, nor are the Tzeentchian concepts you feel I express causing them to bleed out of their ears. Play it up as much as you want, but being exposed to ideas and their expression isn't going to kill anybody.

I could mark your posts as foe, but that would kind of defeat the purpose of moderation, abandoning the forum members to your depredations would be the reverse of moderation.

It's possible that what you should take away from that is that you're not the right man for that job, perhaps? If you cannot read what someone says without throwing a punch, and feel your job prevents you from NOT reading what people say...

but if re-direction is what you seek (which I doubt), be seen to add value to conversations. I know that is a difficult thing when you deem "value" to be subjective. try. I am not afraid of having content here that I personally object to. my own feelings are immaterial.

All evidence to the contrary. It is your own feelings that have caused you to edit posts and issue bans, based on content that you object to. You can try to frame that as noble based on the idea that you're somehow protecting people from evil, but that takes us right back to the root of this discussion: the evil is not objective, and people are quite capable of protecting themselves from it if they feel they need protecting.

the thrown book metaphor as opposed to words hurting is again an interesting divorce from reality with children committing suicide following Internet bullying, mere words. yet young lives end.

While I have a TON to say on the topic of bullying and its newfound importance in the common mind, I think you're groping around for another way to say "this is about the children! won't anyone think of the children!??". At risk of making an appeal to authority here by pointing out that I have a degree in psychology and you're a plumber, there's a pretty steep divide between the psychological effects of being denied one's core social support network, and reading things they don't like on a forum they voluntarily visit. It's not "bullying" or "harrassment" if you're able to avoid it but simply choose not to.

as for me leading by example, I have done that for years on this very site. Have you been constructive or anti-establishment during your sojourn within our virtual home?

It's not "us versus them", its "you versus my words" and "me versus your actions". Being constructive and being anti-establishment are also not mutually exclusive concepts. I consider myself quite constructive, and I am not inherently anti-establishment or anti-authority, I judge those things on a case by case basis.

all I have ever asked is "play nice", as Deathwing says this is a game played by people who enjoy the social interaction with like minded friends, sharing that with maybe a drink and some food. acclaiming the lucky and unlucky alike.

No, you want me to "say nice" with nice being defined by you. It's me that wants YOU to play nice. I get the impression you don't see there being any difference between words and actions, and I find that troubling... but of course I am a million miles more concerned by your external actions than your internal states.

is there anyone here who you would consider "like-minded"?

Again you express an idea that is troubling in its implications. There are no groups of people who all think exactly the same way on every topic, except maybe in brainwashed cults - when people are "like-minded" it is an expression of agreement on a particular set of ethical concepts. It doesn't mean the people are all the same... or that they never disagree... or even that they always get along. It means that on certain key points they happen to share an opinion. Given that this is TFF (formerly TBB) the topic on which we are assumed to be "like-minded" is "fantasy football... woohoo!". In that particular vein, even you and I are "like-minded".

Society really does demand that you express yourself very calmly and quietly, or you lose, even if your point was correct. It's a long road.

I don't disagree that many people refuse to acknowledge the existence of a forest because they don't like the look of the trees - they typically harm nobody but themselves as a result. I'm not at all saying that you should be forced to listen to me if you don't want to - I'm saying that you're NOT forced to listen to what I have to say if you don't want to! My objection is to the idea that you should be disallowed from hearing what I say and to make that decision for yourself.... to the idea that you're incapable of making that judgement call and that someone else has to do it for you.

Given that you can control what you read, either through self-control or built in capabilities of the forum script, the only reason to demand someone be silenced is spite and a desire to inflict your will on others.

[JT-Y]

2) Yes I delibrately derailed this thread because it needed to be derailed. While there are some valid topics that need debate for now it would be nice to just walk away and cool off. And since folks have asked for the Mods to do less when it comes to actively managing threads like this ... I thought derailing the thread was a Mod-like thing to do to instead.

I'd just like to thank Tom for using his discretion as a mod and resurrecting this effing farce.

Round of applause for Tom!

[voyagers_uk]

right...

I think I get this now, but I am tired so it may not come out clearly


you think I object to your "words" - I don't

you think it is me versus your words - it isn't

you took action against my actions - true...

I was acting on behalf of the various members of this forum who did take offense and complained about you. Although as you know my immediate action was not to ban you or edit your posts or delete anything at all. It was to seek you out to ask politely for you to help bring calm to the situation.

I have not edited posts.

I did take offense at the pm you sent me when I asked you to take 36 hours to calm down (rather than ban you - which I am loathe to do to anyone), where you abused and attempted to belittle me. most people would do when treated the same way. I said something to you, you threw the punches, not me!

I know that some moderators/admins are quite vocal in their opinions and this has led to some criticism, However my motives were to act on the behalf of forum members (like you), just like I would act on your behalf were you ever to request assistance.

you say Auschwitz guard / I say servant to all. ALL, not SOME

and since when did I become a plumber...? not that there is anything wrong with plumbers.

I am glad that we share BB, I hope that in time we can also share a beer and chat about stuff. maybe even play a game.

[VoodooMike]

I was acting on behalf of the various members of this forum who did take offense and complained about you. Although as you know my immediate action was not to ban you or edit your posts or delete anything at all. It was to seek you out to ask politely for you to help bring calm to the situation.

Anyone who complains about me is quite capable of doing exactly what I suggested above: not reading what I say, or actively blocking my posts from their forum experience. I would think that, as the reasonable fellow you imagine you are, you'd be inclined to teach them how to fish rather than envision yourself in shining armor and going into needless battle because they want you to.

I did take offense at the pm you sent me when I asked you to take 36 hours to calm down (rather than ban you - which I am loathe to do to anyone), where you abused and attempted to belittle me. most people would do when treated the same way. I said something to you, you threw the punches, not me!

You PM'd me a threat that you'd ban me if I didn't shut up voluntarily for that same amount of time, and I responded with all the respect I felt that deserved. We both took offense at what the other person said, but the first person to go from talking, to actually taking action against the other... was indisputably you. The "punch" you claim I threw was not addressing you with the respect you imagine you deserve in private, so you decided to force your will by means of a ban. You're obviously not all that "loathe" to ban people since you did so based on PMs, not on any subsequent public posting... not that I think it would have been significantly better either way.

Seriously, you can stop trying to "make me see reason". I disagree with you, and that's that. I'm totally content to disagree with the things you say and think, but I'm not content to let you take action against me and simply take it in the ass because you imagine yourself to be on the side of the angels.

I know that some moderators/admins are quite vocal in their opinions and this has led to some criticism, However my motives were to act on the behalf of forum members (like you), just like I would act on your behalf were you ever to request assistance.

You weren't acting on my behalf, and nobody required your assistance - for all the reasons already mentioned.

[voyagers_uk]

Ok, we are getting nowhere. All I would say is please read the code of conduct that you have implicitly agreed to by becoming a member of the forum. Based on which you cannot complain about anything I have done

[snakees]

OMG, is it GW using CIA methods to create internal conflicts ?

You should paint your minis, play with your friends and calm down a little bit !

CLOSE THIS THREAD PLEASE !