Poll: spps for crowd and fouling cas: USE THIS POLL!!

[Zombie]

The "we" I was referring to is the TBB community, Zombie.

See; if we try, instead of saying that we don't want it like the old days, we can come up with solutions.

It's obvious that you're talking about the nay-sayers, and not yourself.

And, as has been established, the TBB community as a whole (even as an overwhelming majority) are not happy with the way things work now.

Funny, cause the last time i counted, 60% were in favor of keeping the rules as is with regard to fouling CAS.

Listen, the fact that there was no problem in your league under 3rd ed completely discredits the results you get now. And even if that wasn't the case, it would still be meaningless. Even if only one in ten league has a problem with fouling, it's that one league that must be taken into account if we want rules that work for everyone.

[Zombie]

yes, i defend it fiercely and i'm not even a big fouler...

Which may be why you're arguying on that side, because you don't know how powerful fouling can be and how much it can ruin the game.

the problem, as i've said AT LEAST 10 times, is one of player balance. how is a black orc supposed to get skills? zombies? longbeards? They aren't going to be scoring or throwing passes. meanwhile elf teams, where everybody is ag4, can get skills all around. they have a more balanced team after not too many games.

Longbeards can get plenty of skills just by blocking. I know that my chaos dwarf blockers don't have any problem getting them. Zombies and black orcs are not supposed to be getting a lot of SPPs. Zombies are supposed to suck and black orcs are great with only one skill.

Besides, elves may get 3 skills really fast, but once they die, their replacement will have to start collecting all over. Zombies and black orcs are much more resilient, which compensates nicely. A well played and well developped dwarf team has about the same amount of SPPs after 20 games than an elf team, because the dwarves don't lose those SPPs like the elves do everytime they get killed.

Edit: typo.

[Zombie]

60-40 is hardly clear...actually to me it's evidence that there's a lot of people who aren't happy with the current rule. what you want is more of a consensus, so that the poll is a lot more lopsided, or better yet, there's no need for the poll in the first place because there's no argument.

Like someone else just said, the rule has been changed recently. It always takes some time for people to like a new rule. Ask the same question 2 or 3 years from now (as i garanty you that the rule will be the same as it is now), and you might get 80 or 90%. For more than 50% of people to like a new rule is already a good feat.

[Marcus]

At times, I have felt that some were doing just this; Mirascael earlier referred to "the TBB elite", and implicit in that inference was the concept that there are levels of respect. Now, what they are based on, I'm not sure; I'm just letting you know the feeling I get at times.

You gain respect by talking sense and arguing rationally. You talk sense and argue rationally, you have my respect. I'm sorry if that did not come across. I tend to argue this issue more forcefully because this issue was once enough of a frustration for me to quit bloodbowl entirely.

I can see that it might increase the level of fouling to "innappropriate" levels, what I want to know is whether it will. The data I hope to post soon does not reflect the concept that fouling has approached "innappropriate levels". I am asking whether others have/would like to test, and discover such things themselves. As many have said, I'm apparently not the most foul-happy of coaches; perhaps some of the foul-happy coaches would like to try awarding SPPs to find out whether fouling would go too far.

My concern here is that it's been tested and it was a problem, and that's why we _don't_ have SPPs for fouling. See-sawing back and forth really accomplishes nothing.

I would suggest that the fact you never saw a problem with SPPs for fouling is that your league is not full of idiots who don't know how to do anything but foul. The reason you dont' see any players like that any more is because we scared them off. Most of the ones still around are still off playing 3rd edition with SPPs for fouling.

If it's not a problem in your league, then why not house rule it? The rule's been tried one way, found to be a problem, tried another way and most players like it. The ones who don't like it, by and large, don't like it because they have encountered players like this in the past. The ones who do like it never seem to have had a problem with it. In your case it is safe to award SPPs for fouling in your league and would make a sensible house rule. If we make it official again, then all the coaches who do have a problem with arms race teams have to suffer through it again while the players who never had this problem continue oblivious. I think it is fairer in this instance to keep things as they are.

Python:

I see your point about player development but, really, there are other ways to advance a team. You can't let the idiots build mega player killers and nothing else just so blackorcs can get a skill. I've been playing without SPPs for fouling for years now and I am yet to see team development skewed against power teams.

I think that, in your instance, getting behind the EXP rule might be a good idea. It solves both problems.

For the sake of the coaches who were made to hate playing their favourite game, house rule it and let it rest at that.

[Snew]

Even if only one in ten league has a problem with fouling, it's that one league that must be taken into account if we want rules that work for everyone.

It's BS statements like this that have caused all the problems we have today. I don't care if it's Blood Bowl or society. One person/league/...ect having a problem with something is not any indication that something need to be done.

[sean newboy]

In the same vein as Snots, if only 1 league in 10 has a problem, fix the rule for the 9 other leagues and let the other 1 house rule it. Your never gonna make everyone happy so majority should rule, in games, this isnt life or death things like laws and justice.

[Snew]

I thought that was what I said.

[Sixpack595]

I have a simple way of determining good rule changes and bad rule changes:

If there is a problem, fix it. If it causes a new problem, or affects things other than the problem in a negative way, its a bad rule.

You want to kill the gratuitous fouling right? fix that in a way that doesn't piss off almost half of the BB comunity. Right now we have problems with Ageing too...our 3rd ed league didn't have problems with superplayers. We fouled the hell out of them, because it was worth it. Everyone talks about DPs leading the team in SPPs...OK, no SPPs for players with DP.

There is a better way, we should find it.

[Ghost of Pariah]

At times, I have felt that some were doing just this; Mirascael earlier referred to "the TBB elite", and implicit in that inference was the concept that there are levels of respect. Now, what they are based on, I'm not sure; I'm just letting you know the feeling I get at times.

I have read this before and, in fact, one noob was on a crusade that there was some "in" club and that we aheted all rookies. It's simply not true. I think what some defensive nebies mistake for elitism is just a sort of friendship that some of us have developed because we have posted here and at the Locker Room for so long.

I cannot find such a person either; however, I can find many who do not like some aspect of the current or intended LRB rules (are you, for example, 100% ready and willing to toss aside Aging for EXP? All posts I have seen from you regarding this topic lead me to believe not).

I ahve stated several times that I don't think the EXp system is better or worse than Ageing. I've also said that both systems work effectively. They just aren't fun. So, to answer your question, yes I would be will ing to use EXp in place of Ageing. But that wasn't what you originally said either. you said "anyone who is not satisfied with the rules". Everyone is going to have minor problems with the rules. You can't have people work together and 100% please everyone. Right now I think the LRB pleases 99% of the BB community to 99% satisfaction.

Most of us who are opposing you have been around this game for a very long time and know a thing or two about how things are going to work.

This, Pariah, is exactly what I mean when I refer to "elitism" within the board. I have "been around" the game for some time (since the release of 3rd Ed in Australia, in fact), but I have not "been around" online. Does this mean that my voice should count for less, simply because I did not feel comfortable posting to forums and playing BB online?

This is also what I'm talking about. You took one little part of my statement, removed it from the context and became offended by it.
I said that because most of the "elite" around here have some connection to the BBRC, whether it's just casual or working. The LRB was made from the test data of some of the people on this board. I'm sure you have plenty of Blood Bowl experience and nobody is saying your idea is worthless than mine.
What I'm saying is that most of the "elite" have seen loads of evidence about this subject. You have yet to present yours. It has nothing to do with your number of skulls and everything to do with your documentation. Do you really think you are going to change people's minds just by saying, "It happened in my league once!"? Stand back and look at from the other side. You won't listen to us and we CAN show you proff!

[ZanzerTem]

This is one of the tamest boards I have ever been on. I am a Moderator on another board, and let me tell you, it can get ugly there. Lemme give you a snippit:

I shall not even take the time to quote the numerous retarded posts. When I posted, it was obvious that I am for just letting people do their own thing. He thinks he is funny, wonderful. I did find him amusing like I said.

I also think that it takes a certain group to understand the humor. I then think there is a mass of droning kids who look up to him like a ghetto land superhero whos super power is to be hard core, ghetto king. Kit is one of them. Internet rambo who thinks its so cool to pretend your hard core and be a hard ass, sitting behind your computer monitor. I for one am not all that impressed. Let me explain something to you, if you are REALLY hard core... down in the streets... you dont have a PC and Internet access. Im tired of white yuppie kids who think its cool to act like they know s**t about the world or the streets. Oh well, thats another rant for another time...

Oh and the whole topic of number of posts... you can kiss my 1000+ post ass.

jackass.

This is tame btw.

I enjoy TBB because it reminds me of a group of gamers chatting together. There isn't any "I'm better than you, haha" crap going on here. I have only been here for 2 months, and I have recieved a warm welcome, regardless if people agree with my views or not.

Iced, if you think that these guys are giving you are hard time, you haven't seen 1/2 of it

[GalakStarscraper]

Iced, if you think that these guys are giving you are hard time, you haven't seen 1/2 of it

Actually Zombie is almost a cuddly teddy bear with his TBB posts now compared to the way he used to post on the BBC .... Sorry Z, I couldn't resist ... I deserve any return fire I get.

I have not posted on the topic (at least I don't think I did ... if I did it was like on page 3; because I just read page 5 forward.

Anyway, where I stand today. LRB fouling is fine. It doesn't need changed. If you don't like it ... well as Chet once told me ... he's on the BBRC and his league even has house rules. IE there are very few leagues out there playing straight LRB. If you really want fouling casualties ... knock yourself out ... but I saw a pretty decent sized no number on the poll I just answered.

Galak

[wesleytj]

Which may be way you're arguying on that side, because you don't know how powerful fouling can be and how much it can ruin the game..

not at all...i play in a very violent rl league. i've said as much several times... we didn't have that silly igmeoy rule in 3rd ed remember?

Longbeards can get plenty of skills just by blocking. I know that my chaos dwarf blockers don't have any problem getting them. Zombies and black orcs are not supposed to be getting a lot of SPPs. Zombies are supposed to suck and black orcs are great with only one skill.

Well the longbeards have blk and tackle right off which helps a lot. the others (and saurus, I keep forgetting to include them because they're new) don't have that. And I totally don't agree that black orcs (or saurus) should get spps slowly...zombies maybe (hehe telling zombie that zombies suck.... )

Anyway, a black orc with just blk is ok on a tr 120 team, or even a tr 150 team, but by tr 170 or so, if most of your black orcs still just have block thats a serious problem. They should have guard and mightyblow by tr 200

Besides, elves may get 3 skills really fast, but once they die, their replacement will have to start collecting all over. Zombies and black orcs are much more resilient, which compensates nicely. A well played and well developped dwarf team has about the same amount of SPPs after 20 games than an elf team, because the dwarves don't lose those SPPs like the elves do everytime they get killed.

well in the brave new world of not much fouling, elves get slowed by aging more than death...my current dark elf team has had 1 death in 12 games. !!!! It wasn't that long ago that I thought 1 a game was about average and just part of playing an elf team. If a guy died early on in the game i never apoth'd them unless they were important. Now I feel dumb if I waste it.

[dakkakhan]

The thing I find weird is that the rules most recently changed that affect this topic (albeit indirectly in some cases) are somewhat at odds with each other, so where was the original problem that was corrected?

1. You weakened casualty skills, MB, RSC, (and want to lessen POn)
2. The ageing rules came into being (to help retire some players)
3. IGMEOY so as to lessen the # of Fouls.
4. No SPP's for the fouls you do try, so again to dissuade from needless fouls.
5. Niggles on all casualties of 41+ (to help retire players)
6. Less money to slow down and cap Uber teams.

I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, but don't some of these changes work against each other? I don't know, I might not be elite enough to understand.

[wesleytj]

I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, but don't some of these changes work against each other? I don't know, I might not be elite enough to understand.

no you're right...i've said numerous times that if the game hadn't gotten so wussified we wouldn't NEED ageing because player turnover and casualties would take care of themselves.

[Grumbledook]

if player turnover from casualties would take care of itself explain the massive rated teams that you could build in 3rd edition?