So - about that human catcher

[EastCoast]

Anyway, it's a moot point, I can tell you now that I'm not giving Guard to any rookie player on any roster; it is a massive force multiplier and blows game balance apart.

Ehhh, I think giving humans 6 block/guard pieces within 6 normal level ups with their speed is a bit much (Dorfs can already do this, but they are pretty limited on how far they can move those pieces). I'm not so sure that you couldn't *ever* add it as a rookie skill, especially if it was limited and the piece(s) didn't have general skill access on normal level ups. I'd just be wary of posting this as a public position and potentially limiting your design space down the road.

If you feel this way about guard by the way, why not just scrap it as a skill altogether?

[Darkson]

"No Guard on rookies" is not a new position JT-Y is taking, it's been a design rule since 3rd edition. It was suggested at least a couple of times by various people during the Vault period and JJ (and the BBRC) were adamant that Guard should not be on a starting team.
I believe it's specifically listed in the "Design your own team" instructions as well.

[Artemis Black]

"No Guard on rookies" is not a new position JT-Y is taking, it's been a design rule since 3rd edition.

Yeah, but so has 'Let some teams stay shit cos it's funny'

[EastCoast]

"No Guard on rookies" is not a new position JT-Y is taking, it's been a design rule since 3rd edition. It was suggested at least a couple of times by various people during the Vault period and JJ (and the BBRC) were adamant that Guard should not be on a starting team.
I believe it's specifically listed in the "Design your own team" instructions as well.

I have no doubt you are correct. However, as far as I know JT-Y isn't beholden to any of the JJ and/or BBRC positions. I just don't see the value in publicly declaring that he'll never consider guard, and then declaring it's a skill that breaks balance. I'm not even saying he's wrong, I'm suggesting he leave himself wiggle room if he needs it down the line.

Also the team rules appear in most cases to be added retroactively to fit what was already out there. Those rules were broken when BBRC or other designers felt they needed the space. As the great Captain Barbosa once said, "They're more what you'd call... guidelines."

[Darkson]

Yeah, but so has 'Let some teams stay shit cos it's funny'

And long may that continue.

[Artemis Black]

Yeah, but so has 'Let some teams stay shit cos it's funny'

And long may that continue.

It's always been pretty easy to make them more competitive and 'still' funny. I've always been an advocate of making BB less cliquish.

[Christy42]

What about simply giving cheaper re rolls or something similar. They are meant to be decent at everything so the re rolls can help no matter what you are doing. The something similar could be leader in some manner of speaking.

Yeah I feel like humans should be tier 1 because they are in the box.

I am fine with tiered races. The only thing is to ensure there is a decent selection of tier 1 races which there seems to be. Blood bowl has a massive amount of races. If you care about balance that much then just focus on the tier 1 ones and let others have their fun with Goblins.

Think of it as, here is a decently balanced game with tier 1 races but if you would like a challenge then here is a selection of bonus races with that in mind as well. However humans being in the box kinda ruins that if they are not tier 1.

[Artemis Black]

What about simply giving cheaper re rolls or something similar. They are meant to be decent at everything so the re rolls can help no matter what you are doing. The something similar could be leader in some manner of speaking.

Yeah I feel like humans should be tier 1 because they are in the box.

I am fine with tiered races. The only thing is to ensure there is a decent selection of tier 1 races which there seems to be. Blood bowl has a massive amount of races. If you care about balance that much then just focus on the tier 1 ones and let others have their fun with Goblins.

Think of it as, here is a decently balanced game with tier 1 races but if you would like a challenge then here is a selection of bonus races with that in mind as well. However humans being in the box kinda ruins that if they are not tier 1.

If you play one of those races in WFB, for example, or you just really like the look of them and you get asked by your mates to try out Blood Bowl. Would you be happy that your race was one of the ones selected to be a bit shitter than the others 'just because'?

If you have a massive Tomb Kings army and your friends all play Blood Bowl and you try to join in and then get told 'Khemri are hot garbage but if you like, why not pick from this small list of teams who are excellent instead?' how would you feel about the game?

There is literally 'nothing' stopping the powers that be making Khemri a more balanced team.

The game was kept alive by the fans, and to be fair, mostly be the competitive side of it. It will only stay alive again through it's competitive side once it's no longer GW's flavour of the month. Why on Earth half the teams aren't competitive has always been weird as hell.

You won't see 40k putting out a list for a new alien race who are all terrible shots and wear no armour but dress funny so it's ok and then claiming it's for players who want a challenge

[Christy42]

What about simply giving cheaper re rolls or something similar. They are meant to be decent at everything so the re rolls can help no matter what you are doing. The something similar could be leader in some manner of speaking.

Yeah I feel like humans should be tier 1 because they are in the box.

I am fine with tiered races. The only thing is to ensure there is a decent selection of tier 1 races which there seems to be. Blood bowl has a massive amount of races. If you care about balance that much then just focus on the tier 1 ones and let others have their fun with Goblins.

Think of it as, here is a decently balanced game with tier 1 races but if you would like a challenge then here is a selection of bonus races with that in mind as well. However humans being in the box kinda ruins that if they are not tier 1.

If you play one of those races in WFB, for example, or you just really like the look of them and you get asked by your mates to try out Blood Bowl. Would you be happy that your race was one of the ones selected to be a bit shitter than the others 'just because'?

If you have a massive Tomb Kings army and your friends all play Blood Bowl and you try to join in and then get told 'Khemri are hot garbage but if you like, why not pick from this small list of teams who are excellent instead?' how would you feel about the game?

There is literally 'nothing' stopping the powers that be making Khemri a more balanced team.

The game was kept alive by the fans, and to be fair, mostly be the competitive side of it. It will only stay alive again through it's competitive side once it's no longer GW's flavour of the month. Why on Earth half the teams aren't competitive has always been weird as hell.

You won't see 40k putting out a list for a new alien race who are all terrible shots and wear no armour but dress funny so it's ok and then claiming it's for players who want a challenge

Error many friendly leagues survived as well.

There are 4 undead races. You have plenty of choice when it comes to tier 1 races.

40k is also not designed to be balanced (new codexes and space marines are always more powerful to encourage people to buy them). Realistically blood bowl's top tier seem better balanced in that nothing is designed to be the best so you at least have balance between the top tier unlike 40k.

Few games are balanced and most are not aiming for complete balance either, just generally you have swings and roundabouts between factions which does not happen in blood bowl.

[Artemis Black]

Error many friendly leagues survived as well.

There are 4 undead races. You have plenty of choice when it comes to tier 1 races.

40k is also not designed to be balanced (new codexes and space marines are always more powerful to encourage people to buy them). Realistically blood bowl's top tier seem better balanced in that nothing is designed to be the best so you at least have balance between the top tier unlike 40k.

Few games are balanced and most are not aiming for complete balance either, just generally you have swings and roundabouts between factions which does not happen in blood bowl.

I'm sure lots of non competitive people played BB during the wasteland years, but it was kept alive as a going concern by the competitive side of things.

And 40k 'is' designed to be balanced. It might fail regularly, but it's never had a stated goal of 'meh, it's unbalanced, we're fine with that'.

And yes, most games aim for balance, that's kind of the point of most games. Playing unbalanced games is less fun in general and 'way' less fun competitively.

[Heff]

Error many friendly leagues survived as well.

There are 4 undead races. You have plenty of choice when it comes to tier 1 races.

40k is also not designed to be balanced (new codexes and space marines are always more powerful to encourage people to buy them). Realistically blood bowl's top tier seem better balanced in that nothing is designed to be the best so you at least have balance between the top tier unlike 40k.

Few games are balanced and most are not aiming for complete balance either, just generally you have swings and roundabouts between factions which does not happen in blood bowl.

I'm sure lots of non competitive people played BB during the wasteland years, but it was kept alive as a going concern by the competitive side of things.

And 40k 'is' designed to be balanced. It might fail regularly, but it's never had a stated goal of 'meh, it's unbalanced, we're fine with that'.

And yes, most games aim for balance, that's kind of the point of most games. Playing unbalanced games is less fun in general and 'way' less fun competitively.

40k and warhammer were designed to sell miniatures, that is why "power creep" was/is such a thing. They want you to bin your once uber powerful Eldar and replace them with Tyranids (or whatever) that have these new things.

This is my main worry about the current interest in BB. They have a honed system that works, that has been extensively play tested and where the imbalances are known and built in. Currently they are only messing with the periphery, a star here, a frog there, all of which can be ignored. At some point we will have a decision made like "weeping daggers" which rather than affecting one corner, will affect the whole game. So far we have escaped this.

They could publish the whole damn game, with current stars and then just start making the models. But no we are getting the standard GW drip feed effect. Balance is fine, we don't need to change anything major at this point. Giving starting rosters Guard (for example) is a MAJOR change and should be avoided.

[Artemis Black]

Error many friendly leagues survived as well.

There are 4 undead races. You have plenty of choice when it comes to tier 1 races.

40k is also not designed to be balanced (new codexes and space marines are always more powerful to encourage people to buy them). Realistically blood bowl's top tier seem better balanced in that nothing is designed to be the best so you at least have balance between the top tier unlike 40k.

Few games are balanced and most are not aiming for complete balance either, just generally you have swings and roundabouts between factions which does not happen in blood bowl.

I'm sure lots of non competitive people played BB during the wasteland years, but it was kept alive as a going concern by the competitive side of things.

And 40k 'is' designed to be balanced. It might fail regularly, but it's never had a stated goal of 'meh, it's unbalanced, we're fine with that'.

And yes, most games aim for balance, that's kind of the point of most games. Playing unbalanced games is less fun in general and 'way' less fun competitively.

40k and warhammer were designed to sell miniatures, that is why "power creep" was/is such a thing. They want you to bin your once uber powerful Eldar and replace them with Tyranids (or whatever) that have these new things.

This is my main worry about the current interest in BB. They have a honed system that works, that has been extensively play tested and where the imbalances are known and built in. Currently they are only messing with the periphery, a star here, a frog there, all of which can be ignored. At some point we will have a decision made like "weeping daggers" which rather than affecting one corner, will affect the whole game. So far we have escaped this.

They could publish the whole damn game, with current stars and then just start making the models. But no we are getting the standard GW drip feed effect. Balance is fine, we don't need to change anything major at this point. Giving starting rosters Guard (for example) is a MAJOR change and should be avoided.

Lots of people do 'not' think it's fine now though, that's kind of the point. There are constant discussions and arguments across multiple forums about many things. Clawpomb, humans being meh, half the teams being shit in general, overpowered kick off events, penalty kicks being stupid, 75% of the star players being a waste of space, luck plays too big a factor and so on.

Aren't you bored of the exact same things always happening? Permanent leagues being dominated by Chaos/Nurge/Chorf and Clawpomb, short leagues being dominated by AG teams or full skill teams like Amazons and Norse, tournaments being dominated by whichever teams are benefited the most by the tier/skill choices.

Chaos are 'never' going to win a tournament like the world cup. That's so weird, and yet because of the way BB has been kept alive over the years, developing into a cliquey thing, anyone who matters doesn't care.

I would 'love' to see major changes tested out. There are no end of players who would playtest for free. It's the perfect environment to try stuff out. And instead we'll get a year of arguing wihether human catchers should be AV7 or 8

[Heff]

I generally see the same PEOPLE winning tournaments. Cos they are the best players. Normally with one of a dozen or so tier 1 teams.

I have never got bored playing cos the variation within the sameness gets me every time.

I do not accept there is a clique or inner circle who have the game sown up. I see a group of very knowledgeable experts who have been through this years ago and did a great job clearing the undergrowth.

[Artemis Black]

I generally see the same PEOPLE winning tournaments. Cos they are the best players. Normally with one of a dozen or so tier 1 teams.

I have never got bored playing cos the variation within the sameness gets me every time.

I do not accept there is a clique or inner circle who have the game sown up. I see a group of very knowledgeable experts who have been through this years ago and did a great job clearing the undergrowth.

*grin* You and I see a 'very' different game. A 'dozen' teams winning tournaments? Unless they are gimmick tournaments or like 5 guys in a shop then you must having a laugh.

[Heff]

I generally see the same PEOPLE winning tournaments. Cos they are the best players. Normally with one of a dozen or so tier 1 teams.

I have never got bored playing cos the variation within the sameness gets me every time.

I do not accept there is a clique or inner circle who have the game sown up. I see a group of very knowledgeable experts who have been through this years ago and did a great job clearing the undergrowth.

*grin* You and I see a 'very' different game. A 'dozen' teams winning tournaments? Unless they are gimmick tournaments or like 5 guys in a shop then you must having a laugh.

Go on the NAF site. Look me up. I am shit but have been to a number of bigish tourneys.