State of the NAFtion

[Digger Goreman]

Not a bad start, Geggster, and maybe your group can pull it together and move on to a better organization sans granny....

Point of order: I have said nothing about making dice and do not give a fig... just to be clear

gw making dice available at cost?! Boggles the mind and I can see why legal, et al, had a cow over that...

Still, my biggest beef is being in bed with the enemy.... w@nkers deserves every bit of vitriol available and collusion gets collateral at least... and paints a poor pic of being victimized.... Hopefully you are a top notch guy, G, but those ties are dirtier than a zombie raised in a fertilizer factory....

It is Jervis design, but he has a long line of association and "kings caveat" to answer to in my book....

So, yeah, best of luck... but my money stays firmly in my pocket till I see much better....

[Darkson]

2. address, in a positive and concrete manner, all questions posed here....

How I am doing so far? It beggars belief though that only the NAF committee have to address issues in a "positive and concrete manner". Some of the questioning and attitudes here leave a lot to be desired.

If people have genuine questions then they can always pm or email the committee members. If you want to ask questions publicly, don't expect a committee member to immediately pick it up, but as long as it is civil, I'm sure it will be addressed at some stage. If you just want to be rude and confrontational, and show how vitriolic you can be with a keyboard, then don't expect any more answers in a hurry.

That would be all well and good, if it wasn't for the fact that many of the questions on this thread and the similiar one on the NAF forum have been asked before and ignored. If these questions have been asked, and not answered, it's no wonder the vitriol has gone up.
Answer questions asked in good time (no-one expects the commitee to be online 24/7), and many of these issues wouldn't have come to such a head.

[Pakulkan]

2. address, in a positive and concrete manner, all questions posed here....

How I am doing so far? It beggars belief though that only the NAF committee have to address issues in a "positive and concrete manner". Some of the questioning and attitudes here leave a lot to be desired.

If people have genuine questions then they can always pm or email the committee members. If you want to ask questions publicly, don't expect a committee member to immediately pick it up, but as long as it is civil, I'm sure it will be addressed at some stage. If you just want to be rude and confrontational, and show how vitriolic you can be with a keyboard, then don't expect any more answers in a hurry.

That would be all well and good, if it wasn't for the fact that many of the questions on this thread and the similiar one on the NAF forum have been asked before and ignored. If these questions have been asked, and not answered, it's no wonder the vitriol has gone up.
Answer questions asked in good time (no-one expects the commitee to be online 24/7), and many of these issues wouldn't have come to such a head.

That is absolutely it.

[Geggster]

"We tried other angles" included raising the price so they made increasing levels of profit. But they weren't interested. Hardly greedy action by them, but I imagine you'll still manage to see the bad side of that.

And "collusion"? Blimey.

@ Darkson. So you choose to say nothing at all as a moderator here? Right.

[Darkson]

@ Darkson. So you choose to say nothing at all as a moderator here? Right.

Totally lost me there, as I've never claimed I'd say nothing.

[Pakulkan]

@ Darkson. So you choose to say nothing at all as a moderator here? Right.

Some people are still waiting for moderation in the NAF forum as well.

Seriously. I am tempted to quote you all your sentences regarding more communication, new website, GW relationships, etc. stated along 3 different elections.

It is harsh to see you come here and start talking (again) about how a member would be answered if he sets up any question in the proper way. When all the mid-term members could recall lots of good words, unanswered posts in NAF Forum comments, and the usual long etc.

The cherry is just to call for moderation when bashing was allowed during past elections in a shameless way from NAF, because it helped your position.

And now, NOW, when you find yourselves lost without your precios dice (the ones that basically maintain an inmovilist NAF office there) you start claim for feedback and constructive ideas. When constructive ideas were launched along past 6 years without being took into account.

Awesome.

My constructive ideas:

1- A NAF office that was uncapable to:

a) Overhauling the website in 6 years
b) Add any relevant or useful information for members download in 6 years
c) Publish a properly described accounts without being asked for, as a regular action
d) Inform their members about ANY ongoing decissory process, Project or debate. Keeping these (theoretical) actions hided and without any relevant, objective public result
e) Do not maintain the GW relationship even when they actively discredit other interlocutors
f) Excuse their inactivity on their voluntary work

Is clearly uncompetent.

I would suggest them to finally leave their positions and let a proactive NAF office to enter (if you're wondering: no, it doesn't includes me at all, not even if you will pay me all money in the world).

2) Suggest this new NAF office to invest the thousand euros at disposition in to:

a) Hire a profesional to renew the website
b) Include a modern league manager for the members usage. Consider to perform a NAF league ranking
c) Massively increase the documents at the members disposition: Playbooks, alternative gaming styles, start-up league advices, roster forms, and a veeeeeeeeery long etc. freely available in the website, and also produced by the NAF itself.
d) Promote the tournament organization in response to tournaments money discounts: Provide them new trophies (runner-up, best painted), Provide them some extra goodies (NAF patches, NAF boards...) depending on the size of the event.
e) Consider to produce an exclusive, year-limited NAF miniature/markers/tokens.

This is what I could propose in 10 minutes thinking, which is more than we've seen in 6 years. In fact, this is more than what the NAF proposed: you could only think in DICE. Hilarious.

Good luck guys,

[Pug]

I can see and understand both side here.

Palo has some good ideas in regards to alternative reshuffle of what resources NAF could be doing.
(Im going to try and put this as best as possible)
Although the criticism over speed at which things are done and communicated are poignant, I can understand the reason why as a volunteer organization things don't go as quick as everyone likes. I myself am finding it hard, as a self employed person, to find time to do painting or drawing....let alone consider spending hours across varing time zones getting things organized and discussed.

As a boggy basic member, I can say it's a shame GW pulled the block dice deal but not too worried about that. The multiple dice set is a good quick fix.
Yes the NAF site needs a bit of a rework, needs have moved on. How this is carried out I don't really mind. Solong as it is....volunteered work..paid company..whatever. It has been put forward by the NAF a few times over the years I've been playing..and ..ok...the results pages etc are better for stat minded fellows, I feel it's starting to lack something (see various other posts on this, I'm trying to keep this as short as possible!)

But...the website and dice are not the be all and end all of the NAF. ..which is basically us. It's keeping the community of players together.

I think the newsletter is great. A great place for NAF officials to keep us informed.

Communication and some sort of visible progress for us the great unwashed is my basic view.

....or it could be just the rambling of the' tall skinny nutter' dribbling and giggling to himself in the corner!!

[sann0638]

The cherry is just to call for moderation when bashing was allowed during past elections in a shameless way from NAF, because it helped your position.

Gosh. Bit of a strong accusation there. The point was made at the time (and since) that moderation should have been stronger, but I don't think anyone suggested before that it was biased.

2) Suggest this new NAF office to invest the thousand euros at disposition in to:

a) Hire a profesional to renew the website
b) Include a modern league manager for the members usage. Consider to perform a NAF league ranking
c) Massively increase the documents at the members disposition: Playbooks, alternative gaming styles, start-up league advices, roster forms, and a veeeeeeeeery long etc. freely available in the website, and also produced by the NAF itself.
d) Promote the tournament organization in response to tournaments money discounts: Provide them new trophies (runner-up, best painted), Provide them some extra goodies (NAF patches, NAF boards...) depending on the size of the event.
e) Consider to produce an exclusive, year-limited NAF miniature/markers/tokens.

Great points, and what this thread was set up for. A and C, definitely. Not sure about D, would need fleshing out a bit but I think smaller tournaments should actually be encouraged, as it is how they become big tournaments! First part of B I'm strongly in favour of, second part of strongly against. E needs thought, but is a good idea in general.

Now, we've appreciated that you (Pako, and others, possibly) are not happy with the current NAF administration. I would humbly suggest that:
a) we keep this to constructive ideas (as those above)
b) if people think suggesting ideas is a waste of time for whatever reason, don't do it!

I'm not a cheerleader for the NAF Committee, but I am a cheerleader for the NAF, and would say that there have been lots of useful idea generated here that it's obvious have been noted by the Committee and can be helpful for the NAF. Geggster has asked for specific questions to come by PM, just so they get to the right person. Sounds sensible to me!

[Virral]

The cherry is just to call for moderation when bashing was allowed during past elections in a shameless way from NAF, because it helped your position.

Gosh. Bit of a strong accusation there. The point was made at the time (and since) that moderation should have been stronger, but I don't think anyone suggested before that it was biased.

I thought it was pretty biased, at the last election I found the attacks against competitors and thinly veiled threats that a change in leadership would kill the relationship with GW were appalling to be honest. It smacked of bullying and a close nit clique propping each other up. Quite soundly turned me off the process, current leadership and, if I'm honest, the NAF itself. Note that's all from my impressions at the time, I'm sure people will tell me I'm imagining things and I certainly don't want to wade back into that quagmire of awfulness to back it up.

I too remember promises of the website being overhauled across several elections and I don't really recall there being any follow through on that.

To me as a player the NAF is exactly two things. The rankings, and the dice. It has been quite a number of years since I've taken the rankings seriously, down our way there was quite some consternation when we found out that overseas all sorts of crazy stuff like street bowl and 4way blood bowl were being included in rankings. To my eyes they are tainted to an unretrievable level at this stage, nothing short of a full reset and tighter restrictions on how they are maintained in future would improve things in my eys.

And now the dice are gone, and I don't personally care for what has replaced them.

So, to sum up I guess currently the NAF doesn't offer a service I care very much about and I'm not a huge fan of the people making the decisions for its future. I think it can be a great organisation, but it's lain fallow far too long in the hands of people who have literally had years to improve things but instead have let everything slide for years.

I guess it's worth pointing out that I've always done my best to support the NAF here in Australia. I've donated hundreds of dollars worth of prizes to local tournaments and directly to the NAF, I even incorporated a method for NAF tournament organisers to raise prize support when I ran my Aussie Block Dice campaign. At the time I tried to contact both Pippy and Lycos to get them involved and help me get the word out to NAF members. Neither responded, which is a pretty apt metaphor for the NAF in general right now I think.

[Glowworm]

The rankings, and the dice. It has been quite a number of years since I've taken the rankings seriously, down our way there was quite some consternation when we found out that overseas all sorts of crazy stuff like street bowl and 4way blood bowl were being included in rankings.

Can someone confirm or deny this? I was always under the impression, as many other coaches I've spoken to over the last few seasons that rankings where a product of " mainstream" ( 2 coaches, full sized pitch/ teams) BB

This, combined with the " prize support" that some get, others don't is really starting to confuse me, I thought the world body was to ensure everyone was " singing off the same sheet" so to speak.

With regards to an earlier post about the NAF Commitee being more proactive, I believe they are, Sann0638 (90210? ) is certainly both proactive and open in his communications, as is Geggster. Yes, it could have happened sooner, but they have lives outside this community as well.....

@Darkson: would you stand if we had a vote of no confidence in the current Commitee and moved the elections forward?
You and others know I have no contact or influence on the NAF Commitee*( except getting my tournament sanctioned, the same process you go thro') and am just wondering if everyone stood down tommorow ( Lycos, Dave, Geggster ect) who would step up?

* I do play in the same league as Sann0638, which means I see him maybe 3 times a year outside the tournament scene, no relavence to this, but I will declare it before I'm accused of being covert.....!!

[Virral]

Ok that felt pretty good to get that off my chest actually!

Now I've gotten the ranting out of the way, here is the postive bit.

Part 2: Where to from here?

I do think the NAF is important, and I want it to survive, but I think we need some pretty drastic changes. Not promises of drastic changes, but actual real life changes.

1) The Website

This needs to get sorted out pronto, it's old, it's a mess, we've been promised a new one for years. The incorporation of some kind of league and tournament management would be a very welcome addition, but I'd settle for a basic overhaul first.

2) Tournament Rankings

As you can probably gather from my first post, not a fan of how things sit currently. I'd really like to see them reset, but I doubt that'd get much traction. So instead, I'd like to see it get tightened up to just classic Blood Bowl. House rules that change the mechanics of the game itself, as opposed to between-game stuff like resurrection and buying skills for your team, should be gone.

I also think it would be extremely sensible for (separate ranking or combined) a Cyanide and/or Fumbbl ranking to be incorporated. It's all Blood Bowl, it's all popular and I feel the NAF really misses an opportunity by ignoring it.

3) The Forum

I can't remember if this was discussed elsewhere, but personally I think the NAF and TFF should come to arrangement whereby TFF is made the NAF forums. There may be very good reasons not to do this, but I certainly can't think of them right at this moment.

4) The Next Election

Needs far far better moderation and controls, two times ago was a bit unpleasant, last time was a disaster. Oh and there was an Aussie in the last one (Thomsy) but he was so put off by the whole thing that he pulled out early.

5) The future of the dice/gift/whatever

Like others, I'd prefer custom block dice over D6. It would be nice to see the NAF come out of it's shell a bit and hold a design competition to come up with new symbols, and go forward from there. I can attest that this can be quite cost effective to get a mold made and produce as many sets as you need, I have no idea how many sets of dice the NAF produce in a year right now but as a guy with waaaaay too many dice in his garage I know it can be done.

Thats all I can think of right now, but I'd call that a pretty good start.

[sann0638]

as a guy with waaaaay too many dice in his garage I know it can be done.

Good feedback Virral - I didn't think your first post was ranting, but reasonably points well made, and then the second post is spot on, though I think we disagree about combining online and tabletop, but that's cool.

And then the quote made me laugh!

[sann0638]

Yes, it could have happened sooner, but they have lives outside this community as well.....

Wasn't true for me last week, which is how we got in this situation!

[Virral]

The rankings, and the dice. It has been quite a number of years since I've taken the rankings seriously, down our way there was quite some consternation when we found out that overseas all sorts of crazy stuff like street bowl and 4way blood bowl were being included in rankings.

Can someone confirm or deny this? I was always under the impression, as many other coaches I've spoken to over the last few seasons that rankings where a product of " mainstream" ( 2 coaches, full sized pitch/ teams) BB

This, combined with the " prize support" that some get, others don't is really starting to confuse me, I thought the world body was to ensure everyone was " singing off the same sheet" so to speak.

With regards to an earlier post about the NAF Commitee being more proactive, I believe they are, Sann0638 (90210? ) is certainly both proactive and open in his communications, as is Geggster. Yes, it could have happened sooner, but they have lives outside this community as well.....

@Darkson: would you stand if we had a vote of no confidence in the current Commitee and moved the elections forward?
You and others know I have no contact or influence on the NAF Commitee*( except getting my tournament sanctioned, the same process you go thro') and am just wondering if everyone stood down tommorow ( Lycos, Dave, Geggster ect) who would step up?

* I do play in the same league as Sann0638, which means I see him maybe 3 times a year outside the tournament scene, no relavence to this, but I will declare it before I'm accused of being covert.....!!

Here is an event that just finished which used Street Bowl rules.

As for the tournament support, unlike Olaf I was aware that it was an Australia-thing. We pay $15 instead of $10 but $5 of each membership renewal goes towards tournament support here directly. I was under the impression that this was just because it didn't make sense to send money to Europe and then send prizes back here, but now I gather that you guys just get nothing but the little trophies.

This genuinely makes me wonder what on earth is happening to that registration money each year if it's not going towards prize support.

[Virral]

as a guy with waaaaay too many dice in his garage I know it can be done.

Good feedback Virral - I didn't think your first post was ranting, but reasonably points well made, and then the second post is spot on, though I think we disagree about combining online and tabletop, but that's cool.

And then the quote made me laugh!

Well Rant may be too strong, lets say I got the negative stuff out of the way first and then moved onto the positive suggestions

The online/tablestop stuff is a bit controversial I suppose, would you go for two separate rankings as a compromise?

Can you tell me how many dice were produced in the run of Silver Marble sets? I've always been pretty curious about how many dice the NAF produce... more so now I'm a "Dice Czar" as someone called me earlier in the thread