Forget Dwarves, what do Norse need for balance

[Skummy]

First, it hasn't been tested at all, it's just an idea

second, if a coach wants to give his Bull Centaur or Orcs Toughness within the first couple of skills, fine, he'll make the team worse.

think about what would you chose for a bull Centaur: Block, Break Tackle, Sure Hands or Toughness?

This post just drives me nuts. You state that A) It hasn't been tested and B) What the results of said testing will clearly be.

Honestly, if +1 AV was a strength skill, it would be my 3rd choice. I can reroll the pickup.

If it was a trait, I'd take it on the second doubles, becasue Stand Firm is very good.

[narkotic]

First, it hasn't been tested at all, it's just an idea

second, if a coach wants to give his Bull Centaur or Orcs Toughness within the first couple of skills, fine, he'll make the team worse.

think about what would you chose for a bull Centaur: Block, Break Tackle, Sure Hands or Toughness?

This post just drives me nuts. You state that A) It hasn't been tested and B) What the results of said testing will clearly be.

Sorry for you if you can't stand different opinions: I agreed that it has not been tested and told why I guess it wouldn't be so overpowered as you claimed.

[Skummy]

Sorry for you if you can't stand different opinions: I agreed that it has not been tested and told why I guess it wouldn't be so overpowered as you claimed.

Munky and I chatted this up in the new ideas seciton a couple of days ago and agreed to disagree that it needed to be tested some more.

The reason the post drove me crazy was not because it expresses a different opinion than my own - it is becasue you declare that it will "make the team worse" as though this is a clearly obvious fact.

I spoke with Chet on the topic of turning toughness into a trait at Gumpta. He made the change to his league a few months back, and nobody's taken it yet. Admittedly, it's a pretty weak skill in his league becasue of the incredibly large amount of houseruling there - but I don't think it's been playtested anywhere else yet.

If we ask nicely, perhaps Grumbledook will put it in Divx on fumbbl.

[gken1]

why make it a strength skill......just make a general skill--it's not like strength teams are the ones that need the skill. I actually wonder how many people actually would take it if it was available?

[narkotic]

The reason the post drove me crazy was not because it expresses a different opinion than my own - it is becasue you declare that it will "make the team worse" as though this is a clearly obvious fact.

I think it will make those teams worse bc it adds nothing to them to handle the ball, secure the ball, knock the ball loose, dodge or nail opponents. It's usually more important to have Block, Strip Ball, Sure Hands, Break Tackle bc it gives you much more play possibilities instead of decreasing the chance of being KOed or injured. The only players desperate for an armour increase are catcher/stunty types but those wouldn't burn a double on that either.

[gken1]

The reason the post drove me crazy was not because it expresses a different opinion than my own - it is becasue you declare that it will "make the team worse" as though this is a clearly obvious fact.

I think it will make those teams worse bc it adds nothing to them to handle the ball, secure the ball, knock the ball loose, dodge or nail opponents. It's usually more important to have Block, Strip Ball, Sure Hands, Break Tackle bc it gives you much more play possibilities instead of decreasing the chance of being KOed or injured. The only players desperate for an armour increase are catcher/stunty types but those wouldn't burn a double on that either.

It depends on the league. Skummy and I play in a very bashy league, so keeping our players alive and around longer might be a better choice.

[Skummy]

It depends on the league. Skummy and I play in a very bashy league, so keeping our players alive and around longer might be a better choice.

Yup, can generally count on the BC's being fouled at least once by a dirty player in any one game. And CD's just aren't scary if the BC's are taken off the field. In that context, things get a bit different.

But that's why changes need to be tested in different leagues. Jervis never saw the problem with Dirty Player in 3rd edition because he was looking at a limited sample size, and some people never had a problem with Piling On.

[Dave]

it would become a very good Elf lino choice at the third skill, not that unreachable for elf lino's (imaging AV8 blodge Welf lino's)

[David Bergkvist]

Yup, can generally count on the BC's being fouled at least once by a dirty player in any one game.

In that case, I think I'd pick dodge over +1 AV since dodge prevents many fouls from even happening (unless tackle is common), whereas +1 AV only increases the probability of surviving dirty player foul slightly.

[gken1]

having only a bull centaur with dodge just means that the one or two tacklers on the team will be hitting him. If he gets hit with tackle every play it doesn't matter. But if toughness is a regular skill it would be taken because dodge requires doubles. The question is whether you'd take toughness over sure hands or break tackle.

[David Bergkvist]

having only a bull centaur with dodge just means that the one or two tacklers on the team will be hitting him.

But this assumes that it is your opponent that decides who he can pit against whom. If you tie up his tacklers with your non-dodge players, he'll be forced to make dodges (and thereby risk turnovers) if he wants to use tackle. He'll also need to waste a blitz on it. Also, if his tacklers have ST 3 and his ST 4+ players don't have tackle, he'll need to waste one more assist on it.

But if toughness is a regular skill it would be taken because dodge requires doubles. The question is whether you'd take toughness over sure hands or break tackle.

I was responding to the strength trait idea. If toughness is a general skill, it would be taken more often, of course.

[gken1]

it's been posted as a strength skill.....possibly a trait---but that still puts it kinda like spikes right now.

[gken1]

having only a bull centaur with dodge just means that the one or two tacklers on the team will be hitting him.

But this assumes that it is your opponent that decides who he can pit against whom. If you tie up his tacklers with your non-dodge players, he'll be forced to make dodges (and thereby risk turnovers) if he wants to use tackle. He'll also need to waste a blitz on it. Also, if his tacklers have ST 3 and his ST 4+ players don't have tackle, he'll need to waste one more assist on it.

good coaches will get the tackler on him...period.

[Skummy]

In that case, I think I'd pick dodge over +1 AV since dodge prevents many fouls from even happening (unless tackle is common), whereas +1 AV only increases the probability of surviving dirty player foul slightly.

We have Black Orcs with 4 skills in our league, and most top tier teams have at least 3 tacklers on them, unless they're Elves, of course. Taking any single given player down isn't that much of a problem, and there isn't really any upper limit to the number of games a team can play. We don't force teams to retire, so some teams have played well over 50 games in their career.

I don't think that adding toughness as a skill/trait will be unbalancing in the short run - but I'm not sure about the long run. Since balancing leagues for long term play is one of the stated goals for the game, I'm just not sure why it should be change.

And another thing - if people are so convinced that it is a marginal skill, why bother making the change if nobody's going to take it?

[Tim]

Interesting discussion ...

I didn't really think about a general use of toughness in the league, but just add the skill to the Norse team only as a house rule if you feel they are too weak in long-term.

I know that race specific skill selections seem not to be popular for the official rules, although i don't really understand why, because it's a great tool for tweaking team balance that only kicks in long-term (while most other tweaking methods like RR price, player price, etc. have effects on starting teams as well).

You could make it either a STR skill or a gen trait. GEN trait would mean that even elfs can get it, however they have to sacrifice guard over it and i think a Blodge, Guard Lineelf is more scary than a Blodge, Toughness one.