Talk Fantasy Football

Hi all,
we've now had a halfling team play a few games in our playtest league, and everybody is shocked that they're that bad.
Don't get me wrong - we've had gobbos, underworld and ogres, and they've all lost a lot too, and we're fine with that!
It's not the losing, it's the way it happens.

In our analysis, the LRB5 halfling team is simply too bad.
Now - this is where I'll probably get told that "if you want to help a weak team, you're trying to create total balance, in which case you might as well play in an all-human league."
But that's not the same thing. Slightly boosting halflings is a long way from making them level with the rest of the teams.

In the MBBL, halfings have won 11 out of 58 games.
Surely there is room for improvement, without pulling them out of tier 3.
If we gave them a little something, they might perhaps improve to the level of gobbos. . I hope nobody will claim that LRB5 goblins are tier 2 (or better).

As far as we can tell, 3 factors have completely destroyed the LRB5 halflings:
1) New treeman negatives (take root combined with no assists for standing up)
2) New master chef.
3) New environment. (It's harsher. The gobbos got improved in LRB5, and they're still tier 3)

We're fine with the weakened master chef. It always seemed odd to us that a team should get that big of a boost from coaching staff.

But the take root is terrible - and I know for a fact that it was not designed to be weaker than the old take root. But that's how it plays out on a halfling team (not on a wood elf team). Take Root singlehandedly loses you the game.

In our experience, on the half where the halflings start with the ball, they have a decent shot at scoring. However, they can't control the clock (stall), because once the trees have taken root, the halflings are just running for their lives. If the halflings score, opposing teams are very likely to have time enough left to equalize. If on the other hands the halflings turn over the ball on their offense, most opponents will grab it, then stall out the half as soon as the treemen have taken root.

On the other half, opposing teams will wait for the treemen to take root (which they will do eventually) then play the rest of the half against 9 or fewer halflings, and score on turn 8.

IMO, take root is the harshest of the negaskills. One bad roll and you're dead in the water.
And don't tell me that new Multiple Block and Grab helps to compensate, because in my experience they aren't that good to begin with, and once you're rooted, all you'll be grabbing and multiblocking is your empty TZ.
(And before you've taken root MultiBlock isn't worth it either. If you take the 2 2dice blocks, instead of a single 3dice block - your turnover risk jumps from 3,7% to 21%!!)

Of all the teams in the game, the halfling team is the least viable to be able to play on in any meaningful way without their big guys!

Beating them is just too damn easy. Which to us translates to no fun for either side.
In the MBBL, halflings are at 11 wins in 58 games.
And as of now, there are no active halfling teams, because nobody can be bothered to play them!
Surely this is a sign that the legendary "coach who enjoys a challenge or loves the race" couldn't be bothered to touch halflings. Gobbos are challenge enough. And halflings are so much worse.

I have a few ideas about what to do (officially, or as house rules).
Suggestions/comments are welcome.

What we're considering is one of these:
1) a halfling bombardier - because it gives you a sneaky way to uproot rooted trees.
2) 0-2 fatfellows (ST3 halflings).
3) 0-2 dryads (a standard thrower - to set the team apart from the other stunty teams)
4) loner off the treemen. Will help them not take root.
5) Ogres replace treemen (I know BB isn't WFB. Doesn't mean it has to be MiddleEarth).

Cheers
Martin

11 out of 58 wins? how many draws? 19% win rate isn't too bad for halflings imo.

plasmoid wrote:What we're considering is one of these:
1) a halfling bombardier - because it gives you a sneaky way to uproot rooted trees.
2) 0-2 fatfellows (ST3 halflings).
3) 0-2 dryads (a standard thrower - to set the team apart from the other stunty teams)
4) loner off the treemen. Will help them not take root.
5) Ogres replace treemen (I know BB isn't WFB. Doesn't mean it has to be MiddleEarth).

Hi Martin.

The only one of those I would use is 4) removing Loner. But it depends how houseruled your league is. If a lot, then Dryads might be fun.

Btw, I think Right Stuff cancelling Tackle would be the better change (for all stunties). If you think about it this implicitly helps Flings more than Goblins as they have AV 6. I don't have a problem with Fling win rates, but there should be some chance of team building for a coach who uses them. Maybe team building should be even more fun on a stunty team as a reward for coaching them!

With the draws counting for half a win, they're at 25% I think.

Now - before this turns into "Oh they're fine. It's a lovely win rate" please let me elaborate:
It's not really so much the "win"-rate, as they the way they are losing.
So, to us at least, if a change were to make thier win-rate soar, we'd be quite happy to get rid of the Master Chef. You know, to knock them back down if needed.

I don't care that much if they lost all their games, as long as the games were reasonably close - i.e. exciting.

Cheers
Martin

To me, it seems that the problem isn't with fling team but with any team which is too weak to fight against stalling. The same happens with badly beaten elves sometimes although not as often.

Anyway, as I cannot see a solution to the core problem a patch boosting flings could be added. Maybe adding a clause to take root saying one or two players may dig the rooted tree up if spending entire turn without taking an action next to a tree.

What if Take Root were changed so that Treemen "GO for It" on a 4+ roll, not a 2+ roll, and then can never have a MA higher than 2?

Oh, and remove rookie treemen from Wood Elves.

This would make Trees pretty much stuck with one negatrait- Slow Movement. You can Dodge away from them or knock them down and then they can't do anything for awhile.

First of all you need to take away the treeman from the Woodies, then you can rebalance it to suit flings.

That's called one stone for two birds.

Played against a Treeman last night for the first time under LRB5, I was amazed at how a player that costs so much could do so little, Take root then roll to stand up!! my opponent (a Newbie) stopped trying to stand him up and concentrated on the rest of the team (Woodies) I thought that maybe the "Assists to stand up" old rule (Dont know which version that was from) would have helped a great deal, Maybe give the Flings an Extraordinary Skill like

Transplant (Not good with names) A Halfling that is adjacent to a prone Treeman and not in a tackle zone at the start of his turn or after moving adds +1 to the roll for standing up (a bit like a reverse foul if you like)

Give the player a fighting chance to get his expensive investment working

As a side note the Newbie stuffed my Lizards 5-1!! however as i (along with Buggrit) are teaching him i cannot be to down....

Hi all,
thanks for the feedback - even if there wasn't tons of it.
Good points made, and besides, it always helps to put your thoughts into writing

So,
Fen said:
>First of all you need to take away the treeman from the Woodies, then
>you can rebalance it to suit flings.
And Jural said:
>What if Take Root were changed so that Treemen "GO for It" on a 4+
>roll, not a 2+ roll, and then can never have a MA higher than 2?

I totally agree Fen. And Jural, that's an inspired idea. I like it! Don't know if the MA2 max is needed as long as they're only on the halfling team - but 4+ GFIs is great.

I'd probably do both of those if I was in charge of the official teams.
However, as long as I'm not, I'll look for a house rule that works even with a treeman on the wood elf team....

Vero said:
>To me, it seems that the problem isn't with fling team but with any team
>which is too weak to fight against stalling.
Yeah, and that's what happens once the trees take root.
It can happen to badly beaten up teams too - but then at least there was some risk/luck involved. With treemen it will invariably happen.

Joe said:
>Btw, I think Right Stuff cancelling Tackle would be the better change (for all stunties).
AFAIK it's dead officially. And as a house rule, I'm not looking to change all the stunties (I'm trying to stay close to LRB5). But I loved it too. Sniff.

So, having cleared my head, this is what I'm considering.
Extra dryads or fatfellows are not really adressing the problem directly, so I've given up on those. And the halfling bombardier is just silly. And while I like Jurals new take root, it would probably be too good for our wood elfs.
So I'm left with yanking loner off the treemen on halfling teams, or replacing the treemen with ogre.
I kind of like the ogre option from a fluff point of view, because I feel no need to have Middleearth in my BB - and in the GW fluff it is said that ogres and halflings are actually quite similar species, with their massive eating and all.

Still thinking - so Ideas are welcome.
Cheers
Martin

If you create a different Treeman for Flings and Wood Elfs you could design them seperatly. It is done befor with Ogres. The Ogre in the Human Team is Loner the Ogres in the Odre Team aren't Loner.

And it's a House Rule after all, so why not test it a bit more.

If the treeman is removed from woodies, my suggestion would be to simply drop take root from the game altogether, not rework it a second time. Not every big guy has to have a negatrait.

Even without take root the treemen won't help you fight stalling. All they can do is lob a fling at the ball carrier, they can do that when rooted as well. What is really hurting the halfling team is the changed chef. That and the pathetic people who stall against halflings. The solution to that is gang up on one valueble player knock him over and kick him to death. Even better, chain push him into the tree's TZ.

5 possible Things to have fun with Halflings in Blood Bowl:

1. Don´t Play them
2. Don´t Ever Play with them
3. Don´t Even buy their team
4. Don´t even think about playing them. Seriously
5. Play Against them

my two cents

David Bergkvist wrote:If the treeman is removed from woodies, my suggestion would be to simply drop take root from the game altogether, not rework it a second time. Not every big guy has to have a negatrait.

Frankly, I agree with David. Loner is enough on these guys, combined with MA2.

I doubt removing the Take Root altogether would be popular enough, however, so I offer the hybrid solution.

A couple of "FUN" halfling positionals would up the chuckles factor of playing them whilst you lose and have your team handed to you in paste form