human catchers...st 2

absent1 · Post by **absent1** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:17 am

yeah agree, 0-4 str 3 catchers, NO BIG GUY, or 0-4 str 2 av 8 catchers, those are the 2 best houserules, i'd rather leave the ogre, so maybe we will try the av 8 catchers, not even going to bother jacking the price.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 4:23 am

Guys, I really don't see what the problem is with the human roster as it stands. They outhit the agile teams, and they outagile the hitty teams. They're the fastest team with this much armor and strength access. Guard/Mightyblow blitzers are a must. The catchers let you outrun anything too big to knock down. The only thing developed humans have a problem playing is devleoped Chaos, and Claw gives everyone trouble.

longfang · Post by **longfang** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:54 am

sounds like people want teams with no weaknesses.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 11:12 am

humans have got to have an ogre, it fits the fluff (imo).
I'm happy with the roster as it is.

Pipey · Post by **Pipey** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:46 pm

Do the people who think there should be no change to humans really believe that all the lists are balanced?

Is it not the case that some races have been proven to be more powerful than others? Skaven are surely a superior team to Dark Elves. Undead are surely more competitive than (Pro) Elves or High Elves?

With the exception of the stunty teams wouldn't people like to see a more level playing field?

I don't want to see teams without weaknesses at all. Every team should have strengths and weaknesses. Its just at present some teams have very few weaknesses and others have plenty.

I personally believe that if there is one problem with BB at present it is list balance. In the main I think it could be solved with some minor tweaking of player/reroll costs - basically bringing the best teams down a touch, and the worst up a little. The 70,000RR change for CDs was a masterstroke and more little things like this could go a long way to improving the game.

Gus, you might be right about AG4 being too much for humans but if you take away the big guy then compare humans with skaven.
Skaven - access to 4xAG4,MV9 + Big Guy.
Humans - no Big Guy, no AG4, slower but with slightly better armour.
Not a great comparison. Still think humans need a lift.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:42 pm

Loony Toadquack wrote:Gus, you might be right about AG4 being too much for humans but if you take away the big guy then compare humans with skaven.
Skaven - access to 4xAG4,MV9 + Big Guy.
Humans - no Big Guy, no AG4, slower but with slightly better armour.
Not a great comparison. Still think humans need a lift.

come on, no offence meant, but if you're going to compare teams, please be objective... if they have an only "slightly" better armour, then surely the GR only have a "slightly" better AG, right ? and since we know there's nothing slight about that, let's settle on the "better armour" for humans.

first, allow me to say that i think the human team is both of a good level (not the best, but best teams are not what i (now) seek in BB), and fun to play.

anyway, since people are talking about changes, i have presented my opinion of what changes would be. I tend to not like BGs a lot, especially in the Human team which seems to be as the most normal "football" team out there. so i was thinking of taking their BG away, to make their players REALLY average. i also thought about boosting either the ST or armour of the catchers, pricing accordingly. last, lowering the cost of the RR to 40k to represent the team play and ability to learn that seems bestowed upon humans in any fantasy frame, as opposed to the innate capacities but inability to learn of the other races.
i think the new approach would make the human team interesting, maybe slightly better, hence i'm proposing it in this house rules thread. however, i have no problem with the current team, and nowadays i almost only play humans only.
i hope it cleared any confusion =)

Pipey · Post by **Pipey** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 4:08 pm

One point of AG is far more valuable than one point of AV i.e. the difference between AG3 and AG4 is far greater than the difference between AV7 and AV8.

I'd happily trade a point of AV for a point of AG in any team.

From my point of view of humans being underpowered, I can't really agree with removing the BG. I think they need some changes and don't see why restricted access to AG4 is so bad (0-2 80k catchers). ST4 has got to be out - ST4 humans don't fit the fluff. Maybe an 8338 catcher would help -but armoured catchers doesn't quite add up fluff-wise for me either.

I agree that 40k rerolls would be a step in the right direction.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 4:16 pm

If (and that's a big if) something needed adding to humans, I'd like to see some sort of Blocker position - still ST3, but lower MA,higher AV.

But I really think it's fine as is.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:23 pm

Loony Toadquack wrote:One point of AG is far more valuable than one point of AV i.e. the difference between AG3 and AG4 is far greater than the difference between AV7 and AV8.

how good is a point of AG when you get killed ? =)
of course AG3->4 is more valuable than AV7->8, but the AV increase is FAR from being useless, or marginal.

I'd happily trade a point of AV for a point of AG in any team.

i'd like to see how dwarves and chaos dwarves would fare there...

From my point of view of humans being underpowered, I can't really agree with removing the BG. I think they need some changes and don't see why restricted access to AG4 is so bad (0-2 80k catchers). ST4 has got to be out - ST4 humans don't fit the fluff. Maybe an 8338 catcher would help -but armoured catchers doesn't quite add up fluff-wise for me either.

well, for me, AG4 fits the fluff as much as ST4... and my POV was that the team could be pushed even further in the direction of "all normal with skill/team-RR", thus deleting the BG as abnormal.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:45 pm

Loony Toadquack wrote:Do the people who think there should be no change to humans really believe that all the lists are balanced?

A very interesting point. Looking at tournament results, the answer is clearly that they are not balanced at TR 100. But they aren't really supposed to be, are they? Simply having teams with differences makes some better in some areas than others - can you ever really attain perfect balance in this situation? Probably not.

Loony Toadquack wrote:Is it not the case that some races have been proven to be more powerful than others? Skaven are surely a superior team to Dark Elves. Undead are surely more competitive than (Pro) Elves or High Elves?

Skaven win a lot of tournaments, but have a big weakness. In fact, all rosters in blood bowl have a notable weakness at TR 100... except humans.

Mattchaos · Post by **Mattchaos** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:54 pm

My opinion is not that the human roster has to be changed for balance reasons.
But for background reasons.
Take a look at the vault : Chaos warriors are modified to Bestigors (I think personnaly it's stupid and Bestigor have to got some horns ... but ) role play is important and if you take a look to all human rosters, the human catcher is the only human with Strength 2, and Move 8.
This may be balanced but as already discussed is ridiculous to have a human professionnal as strong as halflings.
So catchers have to be Strengh 3 and so for balance reasons Armor 7 and maybe move 7 only

If you're searching for alternative human rosters instead of modifying the official one, just ask I have everything : pro oriented rosters, tileans, estalians, humans mixed with some flings and a catapult, pirats (every body has side step), bretonnians feel free to ask

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:24 pm

WE catchers are the only ST 2 catchers. Dwarf runners are the only dwarves without block. Exceptions are part of the game, and it's there for game balance. The tradeoff for the low strength is high movement, and it's not a terrible exchange.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:42 pm

Skummy wrote:WE catchers are the only ST 2 catchers.

*cough*gutter runners*cough*

seriously though, i have nothing against exceptions, but sometimes creating a "line" can add some flavour to the team. that's why i proposed the no-Ogre thing. however, i repeat that balance-wise, i have no problem with the current human team.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:45 pm

Sorry, I actually meant to type that WE catchers are the only ST 2 Elves.

Since a main argument seems to be that Human catchers are the only ST 2 Humans, this is actually a fairly pertinant point, IMO.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:50 pm

true enough. however, elves have this "agility/fragile" thing (AG/no-ST acces), unlike humans, so i dunno.