Narrow Tier BB - 2012

[spubbbba]

there was always a feeling post 3ed that there was not enough Blood, I have actually always felt the other way that the damage inflcited was worse and the Ball movement was suffering.

That is an interesting point, both the Cyanide and FUMBBL TV matched environment have ended up being focussed around the bash element. I think this can be detrimental for the growth of coaching ability as a lot of basher coaches seem to only have the 1 tactic of “removal most of the other team and walk in a TD in turn 8”. If they fail to take out opposing players or are actually losing the cas battle then many don’t have a clue how to play and just give up. However against a dodge and SS heavy elf team many bashers have virtually no chance of scoring unless they remove a few opposing players as the elves can just retreat 1 square a turn.

The great strength of the chaos team is that they have average agility and slightly below average movement and with a huge array of skills to choose from you can make a viable passing or running team. It’s just a shame that as the rules are at the moment it is far more effective to be a grinding team.

[voyagers_uk]

I stilll say that they should allow the following

1) Jump Up usable in Pass Block situations to allow player to stand up and intercept

2) Throw Team mate (Thrower to be able to move whilst holding the little guys)

little flavour changes...

that is all.

[Chris]

Khemri seem to be a bit hit and miss development wise. A lot of it seems to hinge around developing stars with ag3 (or 4) and being lucky enough to skill replacement tomb guardians quickly. For online play you can of course take a lot of games to do this so they appear better I think. For league play its almost at the level of flip a coin

Is not the challenge to avoid the 4 g access developed mummies problem of previous editions? And I guess avoid making them look like mummies too much.

So they went from 3/5/1/9 Regen, MB GS/AP
to 4/5/1/9 Regen, Decay S/AGP.
As the linemen are so cheap cost isn't so much of an issue, the problem was their development which decay attacks. Decay also makes them very frustrating, extra dice rolls etc.

Since there are 4 of them and they are str 5 so don't go down much any buff will be amplified down the line. I think any starting skills helps them a bit too much, decay going is a must and the debate is really what cost and does the AV go down? Keeping AV at 9 and no decay is going to help them develope (enough to face CPOMB teams ) but the cost would make them a worse starting team possibly?

[Darkson]

I think your exercise will (and I use this word with caution) "Balance" the experience that people have. Hopefully the results will meet expectations and this could be used to establish a future LRB or at least go some way shaping it.

Very much in disagreement with that statement. I think the whole premise of narrowing the tiers is a flawed one, and onee I hate to see added to any future LRB as I believe it to be totally against the whole idea of Blood Bowl.

To get a set of balanced house rules that suit his vision of the game? I appaud him. As a vision for the future of BB in general? No thanks.

[voyagers_uk]

I was applauding and hoping for a different type of "balance" to stem from this exercise Simon, hence the quotation marks.



one dimensional game play is not for me.

[Thadrin]

Hate the Gobbo and Halfling buffs with a passion. Really REALLY hate them.

Fair enough. But do you hate them because they buff the teams significantly - or are you OK with buffing, but just hate the specific way it has been done here.

Specifically the Third troll and Ag4 halflings.
Would prefer new positionals: DP goblins maybe, and a rule allowing the Secret weapon players to stay in the dugout if desired to break the rule of 11 (They're hiding/pretending to be coaches/who can tell goblins apart anyway/whatever).
I would rather see a small group of halflings with G access than Ag4. I remain unconvinced that Ag4 would not make them too good (as in, better than I think they should be). Ag4 on any stunty is exceptionally useful.

I wonder why anyone would ever take an Amazon catcher again if the whole team gets A access.

You're not the first to say that, and the more I think about it, the less I get it!
I mean, sure, if you don't think catch skill serves any purpose on a running team, then you're right.
But if not, why wouldn't you pay the 20K to get '6SPPs' and a head start on the development curve? Any linechick taking catch will always be that step behind. Fast forward a bit and when your catcher has catch +3 skills, your lineman would require an additinal 20SPPs to have the same statline.

I can't imagine ever taking Catch on an Amazon, period.
When I've played Amazons( http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=656376 ) I have a player with Sure Hands, and she carries the ball. If I REALLY need to reroll a catch, I'll have a reroll standing by (most of my Amazon turns end on failed Dodges).
Amazon Catchers to me are there to get Sidestep and be the royal pains in the arse that skill entails. This means I don't have to worry about one player being the one who needs to be doing the catching either.

[DoubleSkulls]

I think your exercise will (and I use this word with caution) "Balance" the experience that people have. Hopefully the results will meet expectations and this could be used to establish a future LRB or at least go some way shaping it.

Very much in disagreement with that statement. I think the whole premise of narrowing the tiers is a flawed one, and onee I hate to see added to any future LRB as I believe it to be totally against the whole idea of Blood Bowl.

I need to be more precise than that... I dislike narrowing between tiers, but I like narrowing within tiers (i.e. making tier 1 teams more equivalent).

[Tourach]

I think the whole premise of narrowing the tiers is a flawed one, and onee I hate to see added to any future LRB as I believe it to be totally against the whole idea of Blood Bowl.

To get a set of balanced house rules that suit his vision of the game? I appaud him. As a vision for the future of BB in general? No thanks.

Nice argumentation here! As always Darkson...
Too me having a game that in the premise is unbalanced is somewhat flawed, especially such a brilliant game as bloodbowl. It seems that under the current rule-set only a few viable strategies, teams and skill builds exist if you want to be really competitive.

[spubbbba]

I can't imagine ever taking Catch on an Amazon, period.
When I've played Amazons( http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=656376 ) I have a player with Sure Hands, and she carries the ball. If I REALLY need to reroll a catch, I'll have a reroll standing by (most of my Amazon turns end on failed Dodges).
Amazon Catchers to me are there to get Sidestep and be the royal pains in the arse that skill entails. This means I don't have to worry about one player being the one who needs to be doing the catching either.

Catch is one of those skills I’d almost never take unless it was on a stunty. It’s just something you would use so infrequently that it is not worth the TV. If you start with it for free then it is quite nice but with just 6 skills to choose from (and few players get that for or are worth the TV if they are) there are always better choices.

@plasmoid
What about the 10TV skill idea that was floating about a couple of months back? I was less keen on the 30Tv skills but liked the idea of the rubbish ones (VLL, NoS, catch, passblock, diving catch etc) being 10K cheaper, possibly allowing 2 to be chosen as 1 skill choice as well.
It might help add a little variety and encourage people to experiment with other skills, plus would be less of a punishment for not taking the same dull most efficient choices (block, dodge, guard, Claw and MB).

[DoubleSkulls]

Catch is one of those skills I’d almost never take unless it was on a stunty. It’s just something you would use so infrequently that it is not worth the TV. If you start with it for free then it is quite nice but with just 6 skills to choose from (and few players get that for or are worth the TV if they are) there are always better choices.

+1

[Tourach]

Catch is one of those skills I’d almost never take unless it was on a stunty. It’s just something you would use so infrequently that it is not worth the TV. If you start with it for free then it is quite nice but with just 6 skills to choose from (and few players get that for or are worth the TV if they are) there are always better choices.

+1

so understanding you right you would both take the catcher as "If you start with it for free then it is quite nice" !!

[garion]

I think the whole premise of narrowing the tiers is a flawed one, and onee I hate to see added to any future LRB as I believe it to be totally against the whole idea of Blood Bowl.

To get a set of balanced house rules that suit his vision of the game? I appaud him. As a vision for the future of BB in general? No thanks.

Nice argumentation here! As always Darkson...
Too me having a game that in the premise is unbalanced is somewhat flawed, especially such a brilliant game as bloodbowl. It seems that under the current rule-set only a few viable strategies, teams and skill builds exist if you want to be really competitive.

Darkson is spot on here. If there were not tiers, the game would be a lot worse off for it. If someone plays in a group and they are much better than everyone else what would they do if all the races were equal? At the moment they can play a low tier team while their friends play a top tier teams. Similarly - what if you and your group are all of equal ability. Where is the challange going to come from, sometimes I like playng a low tier team like flings and battling against the odds to win, or vampires etc. And sometimes I just play those teams because I have been playing in a far too competative environment and I just want something a bit different without worrying about wining. Without tiers we would just lose yet another dimension of the game, and we really do not need anythign else removed from this game. It has already lost so much over the years.

I like what Plasmoid is doing here as well for house rules. And some of them I actually think would be good in the general rules. Like cheaper RR for Vamps, but I dont like thick skull on the thralls, that is too far for me. But if the main rules balanced all the rosters, i believe the game would soon die a death. I certainly wouldn't bother with it anymore, and I know a hell of a lot of others that wouldn't to.

Oh and +1 to Spubbbba about Catch.

[plasmoid]

Hi Garion, Darkson, Tourach and all,
for the record, I'm not out to truly eliminate the tiers. I'm out to narrow the tiers. You can still get a challenge from playing one of the weak teams against one of the strong ones. (I disagree that making everything equal would ammount to making everything 'the same' or bland - but that's another discussion entirely, and probably not one worth having).

To my mind, I'd rather face more of a team variety, than cater to those coaches that need a challenge beyong the one you'll still get from playing one of the weaker teams. If you're that good it isn't hard to gimp any team further.

Cheers
Martin

[Chris]

My principle concern with the rule is the effect on Deathroller. I think it should be okay since need a double and that would mean no Block or Diving Tackle. If that does seem overpowered then I'd probably tweak the rule so you don't roll for recovery immediately if you are sent off at the end of the drive.

I too don't think goblins but rather deathroller. In league play it is too much of a gamble to hope you'll get the double so i doubt Dwarves would start taking it. For online play you would just keep starting team/rebuying again and again until you rolled a double for the first skill and then continue the team from there. The tweak would be a small change, but in that case everyone would spend a couple fo turns fouling with it in the hope you get sent off towards the end of a drive.

[legowarrior]

I don't know, maybe I'm too proud, but I HATE the idea that I one a game, any game, because some arrogant so and so decided to give me an advantage by handicapping him/herself. Either I won because of a combination of skill and luck, or I didn't. Anything else is unsatisfying.

I don't mind losing. It's part of life, and I do it a lot. I hate winning unfairly. If my opponent respects me, he/she won't wuss out and play a tier 3 team, but instead, meet me on the field with the best team possible, and play the best game possible. If I win, it will be glorious, and if I lose, it will not be because one of us decided to take a tier 3 team, but because of skill and luck!

On that same note, I hate that if I want to play the best game possible, where everyone is trying hard to win, I nearly HAVE to play one of the top tier teams, it limits me and it limits the game, and that my friends is a downward spiral for this game.