Need ideas for nerfing undead - round 4: Proposal

[plasmoid]

Hi Mattg,
2 problems with that approach:
1) I don't want these tweaks to turn into overhauls. I simply don't want to mess too much with the line-ups.
2) (And this is the important one): I want this to be an encyclopedia of good ideas for buffs/nerfs, that leagues could be inspired by when needed. Therefore I do not want the tweak to one team to be dependent on the tweaking of another team. Leagues should be able to adopt just the ideas they like - no strings attached.

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi Andromidius,

Skeletal/Zombie Ogres would get my vote as a replacement to the Mummies. And there's no reason why people would have to change their models, just have to use the Bonehead and Loner negatraits.

Right. You're the original poster on that.
You need someone else to support it for it to make the poll.

I would give Ghouls Regenerate though. Leave their name as it is, bump their price up by 10k.

Leaving their name as is gets messy, because ghouls don't regenerate, and because we'd then have a ripple effect into the necro team.
Also, at just 80K, I don't really see the nerf here!

And give Wights Thick Skull for no additional cost.

How's that a nerf?
That's a 100% buff.

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi besters,
scratching zombies is not a bad idea at all. I'll second that for the poll

[Andromidius]

I ment to do all those things together.

I always thought Wights should get Thick Skull anyway, since they are essentially the skeletons of Knights.

~Andromidius

[Tripleskull]

0-2 zombies with ST acces at 50 k. Would hurt the team short term and help long term.

or maby 0-12 with ST acces at 60 k.

[SillySod]

0-2 zombies with ST acces at 50 k. Would hurt the team short term and help long term.

or maby 0-12 with ST acces at 60 k.

Mmmm, I smell potential.

[mattgslater]

You could make it 0-12 at 40k with S-only access.

[mattgslater]

2) (And this is the important one): I want this to be an encyclopedia of good ideas for buffs/nerfs, that leagues could be inspired by when needed. Therefore I do not want the tweak to one team to be dependent on the tweaking of another team. Leagues should be able to adopt just the ideas they like - no strings attached.

With the Undead team this is a very tall order, as almost all of their positions are on another roster. Given that, I'd say just make Ghouls 0-2. Anything else is likely to either be trivial (0-2 Zombies) or affect one of the other two lists. You could take off Zombies, but that's seriously unfluffy.

Still, I think it's easy to kill multiple birds with the one stone, without doing anything radical. If you want to leave Necro alone and just nerf Undead and boost Khemri, give Undead 0-2 Zombies and take Thick Skull off of Skels. This gives you the tone-down you need on Khemri to give them some Mummies back.

Perhaps you should be looking at these three teams both jointly and severally. Much like the discussion of Humans touched on a price break for the Ogre position on both Human and Ogre teams, if you have one team that clearly needs modification, modifying another team toward its own ends, in a way that will tweak the hinky one, is a much lesser offense.

[Digger Goreman]

Having settled into Necros, I assure you they're a Tier 1.5 team.... It's difficult enough against decent coaches of any Tier 1 team... a nerf to them is just another deep pot-hole in an already rough road....

Having said that, S only access is an interesting conundrum.... Rarely do zombies skill up from their typical line positions, and they usually take block on a normal roll and guard on a doubles.... S only will just reverse that trend and may be an actual buff, as Necro and Undead start toughening the line against stronger teams.... In the past, I've skilled my zombies with block & dauntless (when I can get it) with guard on that seemingly rare doubles.... You'd actually (thinking about it as I type) make my job easier, as I don't need dauntless with this nerf(?)....

[Glowworm]

Been said before (by me actually) lose Ghouls from undead roster,

Replace with 0-4 Wights

Yes i know its a strange idea but it may just work....

[Darkson]

2) (And this is the important one): I want this to be an encyclopedia of good ideas for buffs/nerfs, that leagues could be inspired by when needed. Therefore I do not want the tweak to one team to be dependent on the tweaking of another team. Leagues should be able to adopt just the ideas they like - no strings attached.

Maybe I'm just more intelligent than the average BB coach then, but I don't see the problem with changing a skellie on a undead team while leaving it untouched on a khemri team (and the same with zombies).
If I'm playing Undead, I use the Undead roster, if Necros, I use the Necro roster, and so on - what's listed on a completely different roster is of no importance to me.

So long/short of it - if you feel a change to the skeelies or zombies is the nerf you need, do it.

[SillySod]

Yup, several different rosters already support "lineman" players and theres no consistency at all

[plasmoid]

Mattgslater said:

With the Undead team this is a very tall order, as almost all of their positions are on another roster.

Frankly, I don't think it's a tall order. And even if it is, I think it's worth doing.
As I've said, Mummies can be tweaked without a problem.
Numbers can be reduced without a problem, and name changes can be used to tweak the rest.

Darkson said:

So long/short of it - if you feel a change to the skeelies or zombies is the nerf you need, do it.

SillySod said:

Yup, several different rosters already support "lineman" players and theres no consistency at all

Joking aside, I think it is important to stick with some key concepts for these ideas to be usable by anyone.
I can't think of any player type present on 2 different rosters but with different statlines - except loners becoming non-loners when they're with a mate. (Only other exception is access to M - something that goes with a team rather than a player type).

But I agree, Darkson, that if tweaking skellies or zombies is the only good way to fix 'em, then that's the way to do it. I'd just do it with a name change too. It's all about consistency for me. I can't stomach the idea of ghouls with regen. Because ghouls just don't regenerate! Rename them to wight runners - or whatever - and it makes more sense.

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Besters, Tripleskull and others,
I like scratching off the zombies. That's fairly simple, and coaches could just use their zombie models to represent more skeletons.

0-2 "Zombie blockers" suggested by tripleskull might also work. With GS access for 50K. But I'm not sure of the impact, and I'm certainly not sure that this would be an actual nerf. Either way, 10 positionals bothers me a bit.

Cheers
Martin

[Tripleskull]

Besters, Tripleskull and others,
0-2 "Zombie blockers" suggested by tripleskull might also work. With GS access for 50K. But I'm not sure of the impact, and I'm certainly not sure that this would be an actual nerf. Either way, 10 positionals bothers me a bit.
Cheers
Martin

10 positionals might be a problem. I have no arguments for or against that. But the 0-2 zombie blockers would be a nerf, provided ofcause its the only zombies you get. It would prevent 3 zombies on the line. and you would only gain some benefit from it at the 2nd zobbie skill, since block is a better first skill than any streght skill for zombies. And zombies skill up really slowly, and if you put the two zombies in question on the line, the chances are they will get hurt before skilling up a 2nd time. In my tv 185 undead team I dont have a single zombie or skelie with two skills, and this team is already over the hill getting some pretty ugly matchups. My feeling is that undead is a little overpowered at tv 100-170ish. And to get any benefit of the zombie blocker within this interval you would have to skill them up really fast.