Thinking ahead: NTBB 2013

Got some ideas for rules? Maybe a skill change or something completely different!!! Tell us here.

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garion
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Re: Thinking ahead: NTBB 2013

Post by garion »

Shteve0 wrote:Right, agreed - I've often heard it said that Orcs have a deflated record as a result of being attractive to new players (being in the box is obviously a factor too).

Then again, throwing all data out of the window and working from gut feeling doesn't strike me as a particularly holistic approach either. There must be a measure for less developed (low TV) and highly developed (even if that means TV trimming for certain teams) that gives an indication of who or what needs short term nerfs/boosts and/or long term nerfs/boosts, and what specific level of tier normalisation you're aiming for, otherwise the whole exercise is (arguably) flawed.

Edit: posted in response to garion's last message
yup I'm not saying don't look at any data.

Data has its place. but I would far rather listen to a group of very experienced coaches that have played in all different types of environment, than just look at data.

Frankly that data is clearly bollocks if it puts Dwarves, Skaven, and especially wood elves so low on win percentage, as anyone with an ounce of knowledge about the game will know they are amongst the very best teams in the game. call it what you will dode, but it is blatantly obvious.

Anyway I'm done, point is made about Bank, there has been zero evidence at all to support its inclusion. one or two games here and there mean nothing. High Tv teams should be able to buy a wizard every now and then, and this is all that is happening and there is nothing to suggest cash hording leads to higher win percentage. Possibly higher win percentage = a team has more cash, who knows. But money is largely irrelevant, we have spiralling expenses, inducements, ff all of which hurt the Tv leader, do we really need to hurt them more? also CPOMB and POMB trim teams down in size pretty quickly in this rules set unless you get lucky or hang on to injured players.

No need to punish weaker teams with a rule that achieves nothing.


anyway, I will leave this now for dode to cream all over the data for the next 20 pages, enjoy.

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Re: Thinking ahead: NTBB 2013

Post by Darkson »

Lol on the "zero evidence". You're starting to sound like a Toby or cupcake with your refusal to accept evidence that doesn't fit your own view.

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Re: Thinking ahead: NTBB 2013

Post by harroguk »

Indeed,

You can prove ANYTHING with statistics, even opposite points of view from the same data set, its all in the interpretation of that data. That's why EVERYONE thinks the election system is flawed (Not to turn this into a politics debate, just making an analogy).

Even if there was conclusive proof it would not change garions opinion.

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Re: Thinking ahead: NTBB 2013

Post by garion »

but there has been no proof, not a shred of proof to suggest bank would help the game in anyway, and I have seen the negatives it can cause to vampires first hand, that alone is reason not to use it imo.

sorry, really out this time :)

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Re: Thinking ahead: NTBB 2013

Post by plasmoid »

Hi Shteve0 and all,
I looked through my NTBB website, because I thought it said what kind of balance I was looking for, and was quite surprised to not see it anywhere. I know I've written it in discussion plenty of times.
It has, however, possible to piece something together. As Shteve0 notes, the amazon (and previously the undead) tweak had an eye on both the short and the long term. And then the website does say this:
The BBRC seem to have managed to get all the tier 1 teams into the 55-45% win zone that they wanted. But a handful of teams start out stronger than this, then fall down into the tier 1 zone in prolonged league play. In tournament play and short league play these teams are at a notable advantage - so I've introduced some minor changes to lessen their short term power without weakening their long term performance.

But to put it clearly:
My main focus is on short term play, because all leagues go through that phase - and lots never move beyond it but just start over. If a team starts strong and finishes weak, then that's a problem if you never get to the finishing bit. Short term play is also connected to tournament play, but I find tournament data to be unreliable, mainly because of skill distribution and the resurrection format.

For the record, the data I used when starting this whole thing a long time ago was the data I collected from the BBRC from lots of playtest leagues. So it was league play data, and slanted towards short term play. It can be seen here. The data isn't perfect by any means, so as always it has been combined with thought and discussion.
http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/LRB6Stats.htm

Now, even though the focus is on the short term, I also try to deal with the long term. In the long term I'm less worried about teams being a bit weak - they either had their day, or they can sweetspot. But I've tried to keep an eye on which teams would become overly strong in the extreme long term: The elfses and the big heavies. That's what the Bank adresses, as well as some of the other changes.

In my vision of the tiers, there are just 2. It almost doesn't make sense to put percentages on them, because I'm unlikely to ever get enough data to work on this, nor will I keep making small changes to nudge teams in a certain direction. BB stats are simply too unreliable for that.
But, in a nutshell, I'd have tier 1 (55-45%) and tier 2 (around 40%) - with old tier 2 teams at the very bottom of tier 1, and old tier 3 making up the new tier 2.
This is the specific intention of the NTBB (house) rules, and anyone not keen on that premise is probably better off just using the CRP+ list - or straight CRP for that matter.

Now, finally, to explain the team tweaks:
Narrowing Tier 1
*Human: May well have been left alone at the very bottom of tier 1. But there has been lots of discussion that fluff has humans as one of the top races. That, and as the box team with orcs it's a problem that they don't really measure up to orcs. Finally, Galak, Ian and Babs are all OK with an 'ideological' buff to humans.

*Khemri: Khemri too could have been left at the very bottom of tier 1. Again, much has been made of the decay making them unenjoyable. I would have been fine with just ditching decay. But Galak has revealed that the BBRC was very torn on these, and that the roster was a boring compromise. The NTBB roster was one that had been playtested in the MBBL, and which was popular among the testers, but somehow got vetoed in the final meetings of the BBRC.

Those 2 are actually on the CRP+(10) list.
The rest are my (optional) tweaks:

*Undead & Wood Elfs: Super awesome in short term and tournament play.
*Orcs & Dwarfs: In CRP they have long term problems due to cpomb dominance, so I think their league stats to some extent mask their true starting power. More importantly, we know from previous editions that without CRP-Claw these guys are strong long term teams. With the CRP+ nerf of the killstack, these guys will become long term monsters again, so I wanted to reduce their power ever so slightly.
*Amazon: These are tricky, and they weren't in my original 2011 rules. But the feedback was rather clear that I had missed these obvious offenders. I took the discussion here, and while not completely convinced I was eventually swayed by the accusation that they were both short term overpowered and boooring.

Narrowing the Gap:
As stated, I wanted to push current tier 2 close to the bottom of tier 1.
That's where the small buffs to Underworld, Vampire and eventually Slann came from.
Other teams might have been targetted, but they were either in dispute (Pact) or held long term power (Chaos, Nurgle). Slann could arguably have been left alone - the tweak was suggested by playtesters, and so far the reaction has been nothing but positive (with you being the lone exception?)

As for current tier 3, (Gobbo, Halflings, Ogres) at least the candidates were clear. And if it is any consolation then so far in playtest they are still clearly infirior. But - so I'm told - infirior in a more enjoyable way.

Cheers
Martin

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Re: Thinking ahead: NTBB 2013

Post by harroguk »

the "proof" that is there is simply that some teams can sustain huge amount of time at a massive TV.

The question is, does that hugely inflated TV negate any balance that the inducement system tries to bring?

If you believe that the current inducement system balances the teams in a match then the answer is no. If you think that the inducement system brings the teams closer but not level to the overdog then the answer is yes.

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Re: Thinking ahead: NTBB 2013

Post by plasmoid »

@Garion: You speak of "damage to vampires".
Is this the 'punishment' of sometimes playing with TV inflated by 1-3 points.
Would you still object to Bank if it was set to 150K?
Just trying to understand your position.

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Re: Thinking ahead: NTBB 2013

Post by harroguk »

plasmoid wrote:@Garion: You speak of "damage to vampires".
Is this the 'punishment' of sometimes playing with TV inflated by 1-3 points.
Would you still object to Bank if it was set to 150K?
Just trying to understand your position.
This was my personal view. Every single team upgrade (TRR or hiring a player) should be achievable without giving away TV via the bank rule.

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Re: Thinking ahead: NTBB 2013

Post by garion »

harroguk wrote:the "proof" that is there is simply that some teams can sustain huge amount of time at a massive TV.

The question is, does that hugely inflated TV negate any balance that the inducement system tries to bring?

If you believe that the current inducement system balances the teams in a match then the answer is no. If you think that the inducement system brings the teams closer but not level to the overdog then the answer is yes.
It not as simple as that really, as I think inducements do what they are intended to for the most part. The favourite has the better chance of winning but the inducements even it up enough to make it a close fight sometimes. I think the stat is the underdog wins about 35% of time iirc. Though I think elves can benefit quite a lot possibly a little too much if they are exactly 150k lower than their opponent. But that is another discussion.

However I don't agree with Bank rules. I thought they were a good thing until play testing them. As I said I just hate the fact you have to throw money away this is just daft. But I also find it punishes some teams too much, like vampires or ogres for example and those two teams dont need any further hanidcaps. I also feel it benefits the elves more than anyone as they usually dont have much cash to speak of anyway, and do elves really need any further help in what is the most elf friendly rule set that has ever been?

Yes I understand some teams may stay at a higher Tv longer than expected, but I do not believe the bank will make any difference here. Those teams are staying there because they aren't suffering deaths or firing injuries. And does replacing well skilled players with rookies really give you that much more of an advantage? I think not. As we have seen from all the information over the last few pages only a handful of teams have stayed at a high Tv longer than expected in 6 perpetual leagues which we have looked at, and it hasn't actually helped those teams win anything. 1 league victory for a team does not suggest there is a problem. If the teams in question won the league 5 seasons in a row I would concede there is something wrong, but it just doesn't happen. In fact the only team in any league we have looked at that has won the league season after season after season is a wood elf team that did not amass huge sums of money. So where is the problem??? I am only really hearing one of game examples and I'm not seeing any winning advantage here.

As said previously as well. I haven't seen any team in 4 fumbbl perpetual leagues that have stayed at a high TV too long or dominated in successive seasons so far.

So my question again is why add a rule that hurts some teams but isnt actually needed in the first place?
plasmoid wrote:@Garion: You speak of "damage to vampires".
Is this the 'punishment' of sometimes playing with TV inflated by 1-3 points.
Would you still object to Bank if it was set to 150K?
Just trying to understand your position.
Bank 150k is better, but still not enough. But personally I think it needs to be 200k for vamps and 300k for ogres and if it is that high, then what's the point?

The problem vamps and ogres have is once they have their full roster say 6 ogres rest snotlings or in my case 4 vamps rest thralls, there is nothing to spend money on except replacing thralls usually. The bank causes these teams to stick 100k aside (150k if you up it slightly) then after that you are dumping money after every game. You could keep some money so you can afford replacement vamps and ogres but this adds to your TV thus weakening your already low tier team. But if you do dump all your cash like all the top tier teams will then you can only afford to replace one player after a game.

So if you are a Tv 1500 team and building in the league, you have your 4 vamps and 10 thralls and your team gets trashed (which happens from time to time with vamps) you cannot afford to replace more than say 1 vamp or 1 ogre. Where you otherwise would be able too. You are basically being punished and you haven't even reached SE yet and for what? For a silly rule that doesn't make sense anyway. The issue is all other teams will be able to replace two players with 150k in the bank and the winnings from game your team got beaten up in but vamps and ogres will not. So why punish them?

edit: oh and the other point I made was why not just make SE steeper post 2300Tv ? Its far easier and doesnt punish anyone?

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Re: Thinking ahead: NTBB 2013

Post by Darkson »

Higher Se will hurt lower AV teams more than the higher ones.

Oh, and are you "that's it" again? :wink:

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Re: Thinking ahead: NTBB 2013

Post by dode74 »

Garion, if you don't agree with the data that doesn't make it wrong. In fact, it is 100% correct for OCC, including all the biases mentioned. As I said, a great way to remove those biases would be to put in other league data too. Unfortunately I don't have such data. Furthermore, there's no need to make it personal.
Even if there was conclusive proof it would not change garions opinion.
That says plenty.
plasmoid wrote:My main focus is on short term play, because all leagues go through that phase - and lots never move beyond it but just start over. If a team starts strong and finishes weak, then that's a problem if you never get to the finishing bit. Short term play is also connected to tournament play, but I find tournament data to be unreliable, mainly because of skill distribution and the resurrection format.
Thanks for the clarification. Given the dataset you're using, why no changes to Necro or Elf?

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Re: Thinking ahead: NTBB 2013

Post by Shteve0 »

Thanks for sharing that Martin - it goes a long way to answering some of my questions.

With that in mind, I'd prefer zero change to amazons to the proposed tweaks - I think their theorybowl game has been affected a great deal by the changes and, according to the stats you've grounded in, the fix is arguably not necessary. (no need to answer that though, I know you've locked in, and you must be pretty sick of my amazon whines by now.)

To add to dode's question about Elf and Necro, I'd also be curious as to how Skaven have avoided a slight tweak downwards and Pact have avoided a slight buff.

Cheers

S

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Re: Thinking ahead: NTBB 2013

Post by dines »

Shteve> Reg. skaven, if you trust Dodes data they aren't near the top.. And well you have to draw a line somewhere. And pact is difficult, they can be difficult to play in league, but as min-maxed cpombers they are a terror to fresh teams and shouldn't be buffed more.

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Re: Thinking ahead: NTBB 2013

Post by dode74 »

My data covers a different set of circumstances to Martin's. Assuming we're happy with the reasons for using the data he has then that is what we should be working from.

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Re: Thinking ahead: NTBB 2013

Post by plasmoid »

Busy. Will reply this weekend.

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