B-r-e-t-t-o-n-i-a-n-s, really why not?

[tzoscey]

first, a human catcher is a runner...as an easy definition: someone who runs , in game terms, he "sacrifices" one point of strenght and one point of armour value (with a high cost) to get that incredible speed.
second, a noble or knight should play the role as a blitzer, someone who can hit and move ; cos "only the cowards run" (i don't know if you have this expression ); if the noble is not playing the role of a blitzer remove the ST abilities

your noblemen should cost about 140mo ( he's a human blitzer with +1MO [30k] + skill [20k] or more if he gets the catch abilities), that's insane for a common multiple player (i have already said the wardancers should be the exception not the rule)

a knight without platemail, lances or their warhorses... hmmmm it seems as a simple human to me, you can say but he's trained, of course; he's brave ,too; he likes bullying peasants, what he does in his private life its his business... but the players from the human roster are trained and brave

[Kort]

As far as I am concerned, I think Plasmoid's version of the Bretonian team is too strong compared to the vanilla Humans. While I am not overly concerned about the Blitzers per se (At 120k, they are priced right), I think that up to 8 players with access to Strength skills is too much. And those same 8 players are very reliable out of the box since they start with Block or Wrestle and can get Tackle, Guard or Mighty Blow as their first skill.

And the team is easy to start as well. For 990k, you can have all but one of the 8 positional players (690k), 3 linemen (120k) and 3 reroll counters (180k). For 110k more, you get the missing Yeoman and another lineman on the bench.

I just fail to see how the Human roster can compete against that at any TV. They only get one Big Guy (but no real strength advantage because of the Catcher), some limited access to AG skills (via the weak Catcher) and an AG3 passing option.

[Krulfang]

Let's see me run 20 yards in full plate? Done. Did I run slower? Not at all. Did I tire quicker? Yes, by the end i was panting heavily. But I'm not going to pretend I'm in the same physical shape as a professional athlete. I'm a scholar who loves history, not the pro you would see o the pitch. Let's put a modern day professional athlete in full plate and tell him to run 20 yards and catch a ball. It won't be easy, but it isn't any easier in football padding.

Articulated plate does not sacrifice mobility! You could twist, turn, raise your arms, what have you! Knights were extremely skilled warriors, not the brutes they are often portrayed as, hacking blindly away. Why would a skilled warrior intentionally limit themselves? They wouldn't.

I always amuses me when a response is "let's see YOU do it!" I'm an out of shape guy who plays Blood Bowl, not a guy who has trained his whole lifetime to be in peak physical condition and sought combat to gain honor. Can I do it? No. I can't catch a ball reliably while running anyways. Could a pro athlete do it? I don't see why not.

I'm not going to argue plasmoids roster being balanced, as he can do that quite nicely. I'm just arguing for the internal consistency, when most people would model their blitzers in full plate.

Also, I love how everyone uses wikipedia, wikipedia has a well edited and fully staffed team, and realy can't be edited on the spot without almost immediate checking of fact (trust me. I once tried to edit wikipedia to prove my side of an argument about platupi/platapuses and it was corrected back in under two minutes!) I also love how quickly this changes when wikipedia doesn't support peoples own side, and it suddenly becomes not a "valid" source.

[burgun824]

Would I be above admitting that I may be wrong on the plate mail argument. No. But it seems naturally intuitive to assume that big clunky armor would slow one down. I don't see how that justifies somebody getting up on their high horse when (and I'd be willing to bet this) the vast majority of people would make that same assumption. So, congratulations...you may have proven me wrong on a point that ultimately still doesn't change my opinion.

Why?

Because a knight is an armored human. Which translates in blood bowl language as a 6338 base stat line. If you want MA 8 you sacrifice AV. As has already been pointed out, if you want to make it a blitzer you can argue MA7 but not coupled with catch.

So could a human be as mobile in full plate armor...if what you're telling me is true then perhaps. I still don't see how anyone wearing an extra 45-50 lbs has ever been just as fast, but I've never done it, so whatever...you can have that one. But outside of a Necromantic Werewolf, which is a creature of super-human abilities, there are no MA8 players in the game that have an AV above 7. It's a standard in the game to assume that armor is going to cost you movement. So I'll ask you, should I have wasted more of my time and done extra research so that I could end up at the same conclussion?

And FYI - I use wikipedia as well because it's a helpful tool. But it is common knowledge that you should NEVER cite it as a reference. I have verified this with my wife who has her Masters in Education and taught English for years. Reason...BECAUSE IT'S NOT A VALID SOURCE.

[tzoscey]

Let's see me run 20 yards in full plate? Done. Did I run slower? Not at all. Did I tire quicker? Yes, by the end i was panting heavily. But I'm not going to pretend I'm in the same physical shape as a professional athlete. I'm a scholar who loves history, not the pro you would see o the pitch. Let's put a modern day professional athlete in full plate and tell him to run 20 yards and catch a ball. It won't be easy, but it isn't any easier in football padding.

Articulated plate does not sacrifice mobility! You could twist, turn, raise your arms, what have you! Knights were extremely skilled warriors, not the brutes they are often portrayed as, hacking blindly away. Why would a skilled warrior intentionally limit themselves? They wouldn't.

i don't know what kind of full plate armour you used, but if you can run 20 yards with a overweight of about 60 pounds and you are able of not only normal running/moving but fast running, you must be in a excelent physical form (nearly olympic level).
i can see runners training with overweight (about 10/15 pounds) to get more stamina, and they are significant slower, and they wears jogging robes¡¡¡

every warrior adapt their armour to the battleground, full plate armour was reserved almost on horse fighting because it limits a lot the general movement; on foot, knights use a less protective members (shoulder and legs) version. if you say plate armour doesnt limit the movement, you haven't seen a really full plate

[spubbbba]

Let's see me run 20 yards in full plate? Done. Did I run slower? Not at all. Did I tire quicker? Yes, by the end i was panting heavily. But I'm not going to pretend I'm in the same physical shape as a professional athlete. I'm a scholar who loves history, not the pro you would see o the pitch. Let's put a modern day professional athlete in full plate and tell him to run 20 yards and catch a ball. It won't be easy, but it isn't any easier in football padding.

Sorry but I just don't beleive that you couldn't do it faster and better wearing normal sportswear.

Running with a 5kg backpack slows you down and that's much lighter and less restrictive than plate armour. And as a catcher you'd still have to jump, dodge and catch the ball too.

I actually don't think the roster is unblanced and would put it at similar power to humans. So they'd get beat up by bashy teams as they can't run away like elves can, but not have the power to take out enough elves to wear them down. The Blitzers are great but the rest of the team sucks and if the Blitzers die it will take a long time to replace them. I think they'd be weaker than humans at low TV, but with 8 ST access guys would struggle less as high TV.

I just don't find the roster that interesting really which is why I don't like them.

[Krulfang]

My whole point was never that I could do it all day. I was exerting more effort for sure. My speed didn't change, but I couldn't maintain it nearly as long as I normally can. 20 yards? I hated myself for pushing myself so hard. No way I personally could do any more than that unless I was filled with a TON of adrenaline (as in like one of those big needles straight to the heart).

EDIT: 60 pounds!? That is some serious, baroque armor! Closer to 45, whic is less than an American infantryman marches with.

However, this is not, and never was, my point! My point is: a pro athlete (and some BB players would be olympic level, not to mention possible doping/illegal enchantments) could do it for an hour long game. People fought all day long, sometimes longer, in battles wearing full plate, and charging was quite a feat and often done multiple times. Mounted Infantry (rode horses to the battle, then dismounted for the actual fight.) did this regularly, and sure they were dead tired at the end of it, but it didn't stop them from going all out the whole time. The adrenaline of life or death plugging into a doped up althlete would mean some tremendous feats of performance. Not to mention that after you got going inertia wouldhelp you out a bit.

As for the statline in relation to other statlines in the game, I'm not arguing that, and never was. I'm just arguing internal consistancy. That means: "does it make sense for a heavier armored guy to run faster than his teammates."

As for wikipedia, not valid at all for undergraduate or graduate level work. However, I didn't think I was writing a thesis here.

[marcopreto]

If you want a Brettonian BB team, the 3rd ed human metal figures are nice (kind of medieval knights).

Here's a post with my (human) team:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=32170

Cheers
Marco Preto

[burgun824]

As for wikipedia, not valid at all for undergraduate or graduate level work. However, I didn't think I was writing a thesis here.

I don't think anybody is. You just seemed to get a little testy about it so I figured I push your buttons a bit.

Aggitation is something I excel at. That's why I like posting on this thread.

[Asperon Thorn]

I am calling BS on the whole armor argument.

Simple fact: Running backs where less pads than Offensive linemen in American football. Wide Receivers wear even less. Defensive Backs, even less than that.

The faster the position needs to be, the less pads they wear. These are pads, made of lightweight plastic. Not just lightweight plastic, but since this a multi billion dollar industry, that is the lightest, most durable plastic (probably material in general) that modern science can develop. Much less cumbersome than say. . a suit of armor made of heavyweight steel which was meant to deflect sharpened sticks coming at them from horseback, or a pike, or a blade.

Whether or not Wikipedia is accurate or not, its description is not even contextual in this argument, however for shits and giggles here is another Wikipedia article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_ ... lry_attack

The French men-at-arms reached the English line and actually pushed it back, with the longbowmen continuing to shoot until they ran out of arrows and then dropping their bows and joining the mêlée, implying that the French were able to walk through a hail of tens of thousands of arrows while taking comparatively few casualties. But the physical pounding even from non-penetrating arrows, combined with the slog in heavy armour through the mud, the heat and lack of oxygen in plate armour with the visor down, and the crush of their numbers meant they could "scarcely lift their weapons" when they finally engaged the English line.

When the English archers, using hatchets, swords and other weapons, attacked the now disordered and fatigued French, the French could not cope with their unarmoured assailants (who were much less hindered by the mud). The exhausted French men-at-arms are described as having been knocked to the ground and then unable to get back up. As the mêlée developed, the French second line also joined the attack, but they too were swallowed up, with the narrow terrain meaning the extra numbers could not be used effectively, and French men-at-arms were taken prisoner or killed in their thousands. The fighting lasted about three hours, but eventually the leaders of the second line were killed or captured, as those of the first line had been. The English Gesta Henrici describes three great heaps of the slain around the three main English standards.

Which pretty much debunks the first.

Asperon Thorn

[nazgob]

Is it perhaps worth noting that Agincourt was a pretty exceptional battle.

And again, wikipedia. When I have some free time, I'll research this properly, but I'm a bit busy writing at the moment.

[Asperon Thorn]

Is it perhaps worth noting that Agincourt was a pretty exceptional battle.

The point being is that yes, Wikipedia is not the best resource, and that here is a case in wich the encumberance of heavier armor was detrimental to the mobility of it's wearers.

Or, if by "exceptional" you mean the sheer arrogance and stupidity of the Contemporary French at that battle, then yes I agree. If you have an enemy boxed in and outnumbered, there is no reason to engage them when they hold the better ground.

Asperon Thorn

[burgun824]

I just asked a buddy of mine that I work with who is a retired Marine if he was anywhere near as fast when he was wearing his armor as he was without it. He looked at me like I was stupid and replied, "HELL NO!"

Now I know that there is an argument that current military armor is not as articulated as plate armor was, but still...

I'm revoking my previous statement about maybe proving me wrong. This is BS.

<<burgun824 waves arms in air to further provoke the angry mob>>

[legowarrior]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia

I just read through article real quick, because I thought it would be fun. It is interesting that wiki comments on its own reliability, unless this article is also unreliable.

Now, just for shits and giggles, some guys random quote, and where you can find it, besides wikipedia (that is the best part about wikipedia, is, like any good secondary source, it cites the original source).

In his 2007 Guide to Military History on the Internet, Simon Fowler rated Wikipedia as "the best general resource" for military history research, and stated that "the results are largely accurate and generally free of bias."[44] When rating WP as the No. 1 military site he mentioned that "Wikipedia is often criticised for its inaccuracy and bias, but in my experience the military history articles are spot on."[45]

^ Fowler, Simon Guide to Military History on the Internet, UK:Pen & Sword, ISBN

Anyway, read it yourselves, but I think I we are done talking about wikipedia as a source for now, and can move on to more legitimate concerns, which is why we need more then one team to being with. I believe that for balance sake, we should only have human teams. Obviously, if you want amazons, you can use their pieces, but why should they have a different stat line? I think asking for more then one team is crazy, and lazy, because people should just use their imaginations.
If you want a dwarf team, just take linesman, and play a few games, and have everyone earn block.
If you want elves, just make sure to roll a lot of 10 (for the extra agility).
Hell, with a little luck rolling 12s, you could have yourself an ogre team.
Its just that simple!

[Asperon Thorn]

and can move on to more legitimate concerns, which is why we need more then one team to being with. I believe that for balance sake, we should only have human teams. Obviously, if you want amazons, you can use their pieces, but why should they have a different stat line? I think asking for more then one team is crazy, and lazy, because people should just use their imaginations.
If you want a dwarf team, just take linesman, and play a few games, and have everyone earn block.
If you want elves, just make sure to roll a lot of 10 (for the extra agility).
Hell, with a little luck rolling 12s, you could have yourself an ogre team.
Its just that simple!

And here I was thinking that I was banging my head on a brick wall and that this younger generation just didn't understand.

It's refreshing to see one of them finally getting it.

Asperon Thorn