Narrow Tier BB - 2012

[the.tok]

Really loving the new sneaky git skill (though another name coud be more appropriate now), and more generally, the stunty buffs

Think the Khemri roster is also the way to go, CRP's roster was a nerf going too far IMO

The change to PO is good too

Juggernaut on TS is a good idea too

Infact, there are only two things I am a bit skeptical about :

1)Amazons : wrestle on the blitzer is a harsh nerf, but they did need something like that. Giving universal A access is a small long term buff, but will make it quite interesting to develop.

The issue is the catcher loses part of her identity with this.
Why not giving her 7MA to make up for that? Now nobody will challenge it being useful.

Yes it is a small buff, but I think the wrestle on blitzers more than makes up for that. (plus one less 6337 )

2)Mummies : I must start by saying they are my favorite players in BB, so beware of the biais here
Giving them back the G access is needed as undead struggle at higher TV (and they shouldn't have lost it in the first place as they're not BG), and I agree that taking MB off is the only trade-off you can do for that. But I'm not a big fan of giving them grab :/ Doesn't feel good fluffwise either (Ramtut III doesn't have it either)
Why not stand firm or break tackle? do you think it would be too powerful? they will skill up slowly anyway...

Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.

[DoubleSkulls]

I think Ian and Tom's PO change doesn't make enough of a difference against AV7. And I think that's a fatal flaw. The stats for my version come out almost identical to those for LRB4 PiOn (only reroll armor) - but as the skill is weaker, my version compensates by making the attacker go prone less.
But, in a nutshell, I'd take the LRB4 version over Ian/Tom's.

You may be right about Av7, but as I've said elsewhere I don't think the problem can only be fixed by adjusting the damage causing skills and needs another mechanic to address properly.

[garion]

I still think giving TGs Break Tackle is the craziest thing in the whole list. It is just madness. You have players that can Dodge into cages with St5 with ease. They are players that you can no longer tie up reliably at all. Totally insane buff. yes get rid of decay, thick skull to positionals is good too but Break Tackle far too much.

[nick_nameless]

The Sneaky Git rule as written is primed for abuse. a controlled TV goblin team with 3 trolls and secret weapons, inducing 2 babes will wreak havoc.

Elf (of all variety) linemen have access to Sneaky Git as a normal skill, making fouling a much more viable option for the already very powerful AG4 teams. Sneaky Git makes Gutter Runners much more flexible as a normal skill (like they need it).

I think this rule as written will suffer from the law of unintended consequences and create more power than you are thinking. There is no other skill in the game that can keep you from being a Casualty/Sent Off and out for the game by reducing it to Knocked Out status. That is very powerful in many ways. A huge buff to any "Agility" piece. Ghouls become better foulers than Zombies on an undead team. Human Catchers get a new role to play. Etc., Etc.

[Tourach]

I still think giving TGs Break Tackle is the craziest thing in the whole list. It is just madness. You have players that can Dodge into cages with St5 with ease. They are players that you can no longer tie up reliably at all. Totally insane buff. yes get rid of decay, thick skull to positionals is good too but Break Tackle far too much.

so a Khemri team with 4 skills, one on each tomb guardian would be unbeatable at 110ish teamvalue atm ??? I think not. Alos having ag 1 and mv 4 you can tie them up quite effectively with one guy still...

[DoubleSkulls]

I still think giving TGs Break Tackle is the craziest thing in the whole list. It is just madness. You have players that can Dodge into cages with St5 with ease. They are players that you can no longer tie up reliably at all. Totally insane buff. yes get rid of decay, thick skull to positionals is good too but Break Tackle far too much.

so a Khemri team with 4 skills, one on each tomb guardian would be unbeatable at 110ish teamvalue atm ??? I think not. Alos having ag 1 and mv 4 you can tie them up quite effectively with one guy still...

There is a risk its too good, so I'd like to see the play test of this.

[DoubleSkulls]

The Sneaky Git rule as written is primed for abuse. a controlled TV goblin team with 3 trolls and secret weapons, inducing 2 babes will wreak havoc.

Elf (of all variety) linemen have access to Sneaky Git as a normal skill, making fouling a much more viable option for the already very powerful AG4 teams. Sneaky Git makes Gutter Runners much more flexible as a normal skill (like they need it).

I think this rule as written will suffer from the law of unintended consequences and create more power than you are thinking. There is no other skill in the game that can keep you from being a Casualty/Sent Off and out for the game by reducing it to Knocked Out status. That is very powerful in many ways. A huge buff to any "Agility" piece. Ghouls become better foulers than Zombies on an undead team. Human Catchers get a new role to play. Etc., Etc.

I think you may be overreacting a little. Rookie skeletons are better foulers than SG Ghouls. They are cheaper (40k each vs 90k) and losing one effects the team performance much less than losing a ghoul does. Also there is an opportunity cost to giving GA access players SG - they don't get Block, Dodge, Sidestep etc! Also being KO'd is still quite harsh. Teams that can score quickly, reliably, may be able to rely on getting players back. However many games only give up a single TD in a half, so getting someone sent off early in a half may mean they never return, or only do so once the game is beyond doubt.

My principle concern with the rule is the effect on Deathroller. I think it should be okay since need a double and that would mean no Block or Diving Tackle. If that does seem overpowered then I'd probably tweak the rule so you don't roll for recovery immediately if you are sent off at the end of the drive.

[Juriel]

If Break Tackle on Khemri TGs was too good, you'd see all of the few Khemri teams picking it as first skill. But it's not, it's MB+Guard that they choose.

All for nothing, anyways, because as long as Decay stays on them, they're !censored!.

[Darkson]

I still think giving TGs Break Tackle is the craziest thing in the whole list. It is just madness. You have players that can Dodge into cages with St5 with ease. They are players that you can no longer tie up reliably at all. Totally insane buff. yes get rid of decay, thick skull to positionals is good too but Break Tackle far too much.

so a Khemri team with 4 skills, one on each tomb guardian would be unbeatable at 110ish teamvalue atm ??? I think not. Alos having ag 1 and mv 4 you can tie them up quite effectively with one guy still...

There is a risk its too good, so I'd like to see the play test of this.

I rhiught it had been (though the TGs were AV8 iirc)?

[garion]

If Break Tackle on Khemri TGs was too good, you'd see all of the few Khemri teams picking it as first skill. But it's not, it's MB+Guard that they choose.

All for nothing, anyways, because as long as Decay stays on them, they're !censored!.

That is just nonesense.

There are more important skills for them to take for their team first, such as MB and Guard as you say. Starting skills and skills taken are a completely different animal. Its like saying just give beastmen prehensile tail. They very rarely take it so it wont make any difference, blx.

The fact they are gifted their usual 3rd or 4th skill for nothing makes a huge difference. You have 4 players with ag 5 for Dodging straight off the bat. Highly mobile Big Guys without a negatrait is what you are talking about here, why not give Saurus all break tackle too, and Black Orcs, that is what you are talking about here. Khemri are supposed to be the least agile least mobile team in the game, apart from me thinking it is broken as hell, it isn't in keeping with the teams generally theme.

Maybe if the TGs Ma was dropped back to Ma3 again this change wouldn't be so bad but with Ma4 and BT they are incredibly hard players to deal with for some teams.

And tourach, I never said it was unbeatable. No team has ever been unbeatable as far as i can remember, even the ridiulous Pact teams in lrb3 and 4 that were insanely good were still beatable. But that didn't stop them being broken as hell.

Sorry I will never agree with this change, Get rid of decay, give their positionals thick skull and no more is needed. Khemri already perform very well in the hands of a coach that knows what they are doing, the main problem with them in CRP is just that they a nightmare team to run in a league because Decay is such a pain in the ass. Personally I think reverting back to lrb4 by giving them all MA3 and MB is less broken than this change.

sorry for the rant Martin

[Tourach]

There are more important skills for them to take for their team first, such as MB and Guard as you say. Starting skills and skills taken are a completely different animal. Its like saying just give beastmen prehensile tail. They very rarely take it so it wont make any difference, blx.

no its like giving perhensile tail to the chaos warriors and removing one av.

The fact they are gifted their usual 3rd or 4th skill for nothing makes a huge difference. You have 4 players with ag 5 for Dodging straight off the bat. Highly mobile Big Guys without a negatrait is what you are talking about here, why not give Saurus all break tackle too, and Black Orcs, that is what you are talking about here. Khemri are supposed to be the least agile least mobile team in the game, apart from me thinking it is broken as hell, it isn't in keeping with the teams generally theme.

I still don't understand if you mean this is so broken why isn't it seen as first pick EVRY time, also break tackle ag 1 != dodging with ag 5, it is dodging with ag5 the first time.

Sorry I will never agree with this change, Get rid of decay, give their positionals thick skull and no more is needed. Khemri already perform very well in the hands of a coach that knows what they are doing, the main problem with them in CRP is just that they a nightmare team to run in a league because Decay is such a pain in the ass. Personally I think reverting back to lrb4 by giving them all MA3 and MB is less broken than this change.

i really don't agree with BT on the TB's are ridiculously OP, but i think AV 9 and no decay is fine too. Not as interesting but fine enough, although the durability of the team might me an issue now, with less KO's and no decay (and av 9) they will be hard to break down.
sorry for the rant Martin [/quote]

[DoubleSkulls]

In terms of what Martin is trying to achieve I'd probably give TGs G access along with Av8 and no decay. G access should have a similar effect to the Mummies and is a better long term buff for a team that probably needs it.

With BT I think it is a big deal to give it for free. I'm not sure its completely overpowered though since the team is very poor out of the box. There is a huge difference between a Block-less Mighty Blow less S5 player who can't dodge and one who can. Most teams just feed TGs linemen because they aren't really worried about getting hurt. BT prevents that strategy and makes it much easier for TGs to bust cages to boot.

[DoubleSkulls]

I rhiught it had been (though the TGs were AV8 iirc)?

Are you thinking the experimental rules pre-LRB6? You may be right, I'd forgotten. I don't think we got an awful lot of playtest data on those, so a more substantial trial may be interesting.

[MKL]

I rhiught it had been (though the TGs were AV8 iirc)?

Are you thinking the experimental rules pre-LRB6? You may be right, I'd forgotten. I don't think we got an awful lot of playtest data on those, so a more substantial trial may be interesting.

If memory serves me right, B-Tackle Av8 Guardians were tried and found wanting.
Someone reported they got a worst record than the Av9+Decay ones...

[voyagers_uk]

Martin, I thoroughly applaud you for this exercise, I haven't played too much (non-Cyanide that is) with the latest version of the rules, but just listening to the feedback and seeing the ClawPoMB discussions I like what I see from your output.

there was always a feeling post 3ed that there was not enough Blood, I have actually always felt the other way that the damage inflcited was worse and the Ball movement was suffering.

I think your exercise will (and I use this word with caution) "Balance" the experience that people have. Hopefully the results will meet expectations and this could be used to establish a future LRB or at least go some way shaping it.

you've taken a lot of stick over the years but for the guys who had good ideas in BBMag1 to the thread here, you still keep on producing the goods.

RESPECT.