Alternative Humans

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:32 am

0-4 6 3 3 9 Block 80k Blitzers and

0-4 7 3 3 7 Catch, Dodge 70k catchers

Would be fine by me. If 9 AV humans are unpalletable, the rulebook needs to be re-written if the blitzer gets a second skill...

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:16 am

Could possibly give Blitzers Tackle as well, to better fit their image as the rough and tumble types of guys. Would also help balance against agility teams a little better, without increasing their effectiveness against bash teams.

~Andromidius

Glorian Underhill · Post by **Glorian Underhill** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:29 am

Tackle would give them the edge they need against Lizzards, Amazons, Ghouls, Gutter Runners and those bad wardancers. Or give humans at least a chance.

Rhyoth · Post by **Rhyoth** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:15 pm

mattgslater wrote:OK, omitting a new position for the moment, there are two real questions remaining here.

1) Do Humans need a price break?

2) Do Catchers need to be different?

Nobody has suggested any profile changes to any position but the Catcher and Blitzer, or the addition of a new position (again, leaving off for the moment), and the Blitzer suggestions have mostly been responses to proposed changes to the Catcher.

If the answer to 1 is yes, the propositions are:
A) Reduce Blitzer cost to 80k. Net savings 40k +10k whenever a Blitzer dies. If E is selected, possibly add -1MA, Sure Feet
B) A, plus increase TRR cost to 60k. Net savings 10k, -20k at some point, +10k whenever a Blitzer dies.
C) Reduce Catcher cost to 60k. Net savings 10k-20k initially, plus 10k every time a Catcher is hired.
D) Reduce Ogre price to 130k. Net savings 10k.

If the answer to 2 is yes, the propositions are:
C) Above
E) Ghoul with Catch, 80k (modify Blitzer if A or B is selected)
F) Ghoul with Catch, Sprint 90k (depending on costing sense may preclude A or B)
G) +AV

Good Sum up here, although you're missing a major question :

3) Do Humans need to be more bash-oriented ?
(I even think it should be the first question)

If the answer to 3 is yes, the propositions are :
A) as Above
B) as Above
E) as Above
F) as Above

Now, since there are many proposal for changing the Blitzers, you should split proposition A (80k Blitzers) into :
A.0) 80k Blitzers, same profile
A.1) 80k Blitzers, -1 MA, + Sure Feet
A.2) 80k Blitzers, -1 MA, + Sprint
A.3) 80k Blitzers, -1 MA, + 1 AV
A.4) 80k Blitzers, -1 MA, + Tackle (?)
....

Personnally, I would go for :
_E (get some Strength)
_A1 (keep the roster cheap and quite balanced)
_B (only after some playtesting)

note : giving Tackle to a 0-4 positionnal seems (way) too good for Humans.
It could work fine with 0-2 Blitzers or 0-2 Blockers, but since we're not changing the number of positionnals nor introducing new ones (yet), maybe you should forget about it (for now).

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:10 pm

Shouldn't be too bad, considering Dwarves start with it en-mass.

I'd bump up their cost to 100k though, probably.

~Andromidius

Tripleskull · Post by **Tripleskull** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:21 pm

I like the ghoul catcher and the skilled MA - blitzer. I think the skill for the blitzer should be pro - fits the jack of all trades idea.

I think ST 3 catchers and tackle blitzers might make the team a bit to good.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:32 pm

Tripleskull wrote:I like the ghoul catcher and the skilled MA - blitzer. I think the skill for the blitzer should be pro - fits the jack of all trades idea.

I'm still not on board with 80k Ghoul Catchers, but in that context I like the idea of Blitzers as Linos with Block/Pro. I'm not sure if that's worth 80k or 90k, though... if we're going to stick with a skill that clearly won't push the player over 80k, then of all the suggestions so far I like Sure Feet the best. It lets him continue to do most of what he does now (since he can GFI even twice now with only the slightest twinge of fear), but it puts a curb on the top speed, justifying the price drop.

Glorian Underhill · Post by **Glorian Underhill** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:28 am

I have just made two fumbbl games yesterday, and it is everytime surprising how much difference there is between MV6 and 7. The MV6 Dwarven Runner has problems going anywhere, but the MV7 Human Blitzer is a topspeed player. Almost everywhere is one gfi. So I'm not so sure the Movement drop on the Blitzer wouldn't hinder the human team to much.

And as a note, my favourite teambuilder has a new Option:

http://ecbbl.doubleskulls.net/team_crea ... race_id=56

Pakulkan · Post by **Pakulkan** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:29 am

This is also an old thread in spanish forum.

But, right now, it's clear that human teams doesn't have the place that they should as one of the two "well balanced Bloodbowl teams" philosophy. All the people learnt that Humans and Orcs are the two best examples of "not-so-defined" play in Bloodbowl. With orcs, you have thight, fiable and hard team to beat till the very beginning to the end. With humans, you have a low tier position, not-so-good results and a long term upgrading.

Then, you cannot play the definition of the human team in the LRB. They are beated for all the teams, bashing, passing and anithing. Due to the catchers, IMO.

Catchers cannot move arround easily as elfs or gutters dodging at 3+, cannot defeat himself as norse or dwarf runners with ST 2. So finally, your only weapon with humans is MO8, wich is not enough to put the team in the glorius place in the world of BB that they need.

Time ago, people may argue about Blodge ST3 Human catchers will be overpowered.

But, now Norse teams have runners with Blodge, High Elves have Catchers with St3 Mo8 Ag4, Amazons are plenty of Blodges and so on.

Is really so overpowered a human team with Catchers 8337 or 7337? Dodge, Catch?

So, for me, just reduce catchers to 0-2 and let us play with a real well ballanced team (all ST3, all AG3).

0-16 Linemen 6338
0-4 Blitzer 7338 Block
0-2 Catchers 8337 Dodge, Catch
0-2 Throwers 6338 SH, Pass
0-1 Ogre (Equal)

REALLY it seems to be overpowered? Harder to beat than Orcs, Wood Elves, Undead or even Pros?

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:25 pm

Glorian Underhill wrote:I have just made two fumbbl games yesterday, and it is everytime surprising how much difference there is between MV6 and 7.

The board is 26 x 15.

An MA7 player one square behind the halfway line can score in two turns without GFI: an MA6 player one square back must GFI twice.

An MA7 player two or three squares behind the line can move on one turn, then score on the next with GFIs. An MA6 player must take three turns or GFI on both of two turns.

An MA7 player in the middle column can get to either sideline. An MA6 player has to GFI. Not that you'd want to go to the sideline square, but if the ball is in a funny space the extra MA is a big deal.

MA6 vs. 7 is the most important jump in MA, except maybe MA2 to MA3, or MA9/Sprint to MA10.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:17 am

Stats as they are, 60K catchers and 80k blitzers. Job done.

Barney the Lurker · Post by **Barney the Lurker** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:41 pm

I agree on 80k blitzers, but don't you think the catchers would be a bit much. Would let you have:

Ogre, 4 Blitzers, 2 Catchers, Thrower, 4 Linos and 3RR, all in 1mil!

stormmaster1 · Post by **stormmaster1** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:19 am

The only issue i see is that St3 dodge catchers will quickly become blitzer-type players.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:10 am

As stated before, I think that the game needs more ST2 catchers, not less.
I also think that human catchers are good players, that become very potent with block followed by dauntless.

But IF a league were to use ST3 catchers, their price would have to go up quite a bit (naturally) - and limiting them to 0-2 sounds reasonable.
I'd definately prefer that to the MA-dump on both the catchers and the blitzers suggested here.

Cheers
Martin

Post by **Thadrin** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:40 am

Human blitzer gets +1 MA and Block, plus ST access (based on a lineman) for 40k.

An Orc Blitzer gets the same...for 30k.

Knocking the Human Blitzer down to 80k MIGHT be all that is required, without mucking up what is otherwise a good, functional roster. FWIW I disagree with Ian's position on Humans needing to be more bashy - four Blitzers and an Ogre is plenty for a team that should be balanced/finesse, as opposed to the Orcs' balanced/Bash.

Either that or we finally bow to pressure and give the Humans 0-2 Halflings...