Plasmoids article on One-Turn-Scoring

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Plasmoids article on One-Turn-Scoring

Post by plasmoid »

I wrote this in reply to another thread, but I hope that others than the involved parties will take interest in the points brought up.
The subject - obviously - is one turn scoring.

Not Cheating
In the past on this board I've seen people suggest that you refuse to play against opponents who 1TS (1-turn-score) on a regular basis. IMO, thats absurd. Either there is a problem and the rules should deal with it, or there isn't and the game goes on. Asking speed teams not to 1TS is like asking elves not to pass or chaos not to take fang.

Gutter Runners and Wood Elf Catchers
I heartily agree with the distinction made by BadMrMojo, that the problem is not 1TS (1-turn-scoring) as such, but rather the very easy 1TS performed by gutter runners and wood elf catchers.
Many teams can potentially score in 1 turn, but when these players score with little to no effort then there is a problem.

They're Rare
Not so much.
For Wood Elfs they require one MA increase, and sprint.
For Skaven they require either a MA or a doubles roll and sprint.
With 4 of these, and the fact that these players score quite often, a 1TS really isn't far off.

Ageing
IMO, the argument that the 1TScorer will eventually be lost to ageing carries no weight with me. First because that doesn't help the opponents that he beats until then, and secondly because ageing is not guaranteed.

Big Impact
Some have stated that 1TS'ers aren't a problem because they don't win games. I beg to differ.
They give 1 extra touchdown in the half where you have the last turn. At least, that should secure a draw - and potential 1TS overtime win. If your opponent makes 1 bad turnover, then a player that can move 13 squares will often snatch it for an easy score.

You Can Always Bash Them for a 2-1
1TS team scores. You take 8 turns to score. Then you take another 8. By this point they've been bashed so hard that they can't 1TS. Right?
Wrong.

Some teams may be able to do this. A lot of teams certainly won't. Elfs anyone? Maybe you could in the old days, but with reduced piling on, limited fouling, and especially no rerolls on armor and injury, even a basher team like dwarf or chaos can have a bad day.

And that's assuming that the speedsters play fair. They could field only 3 players for the rest of the 1st half. Chances are they won't all be casualties. And if they won't stand up again you can even lose players trying to foul them. Suddenly you've only got 8 turns to really take them.

Maybe they do it in the second half too.
That certainly won't win them the match, but their 2-2 draw should be next to secured.
My point here is not that the bashers can't win this kind of game. They'll probably win 55% of such extreme games.
My point is that such a game won't even remotely resemble an exiting blood bowl match. It will be 32 excruciating turns of no tactical decisions, and no response to any plays.
I hope none of us want it to come to that.

But even if it doesn't come to that:
In a recent game I played a 1TS team. I managed to bash him down to 8 players. He didn't have a problem with his last score.

The Perfect Defense
Ian Williams linked to a strong defense against 1TS.
It requires quite a few skill picks on a lot of players. It is also more or less shot down by leap. But if it was otherwize perfect then it wouldn't matter so much.

But it is far from perfect. (I did something similar in the above mentioned game).
First off, the pass blockers (and kick skill) are easily circumvented by giving a hand off to the 1TS instead of pasing to him. If the kick was not good then this is easy as pie. If the kick was good, (possibly due to kick skill), then pick it up with a gutter runner and pass it to another gutter runner in the backfield. He can then make the hand-off. In short, you eliminate kick and pass block with a single 2+ roll.
Maybe you don't have that many gutter runners (or wood elf catchers) left, but both teams also have throwers in an emergency.

Secondly, the line at the rear.
As mentioned, if the 1TS'er is really super, he can leap over your line, (or dodge his way right through it - though that is quite hard).
Also, if your 1TS'ing opponent really just came for the 2-2 draw in a key match, then a wizard saved for this will blast the pitch wide open.

But these nightmare situations aside, what he can do, is blitz you down there. Yep, thats right. Blitz.
The guys in the wide zones are exposed to assists. Woodies and Skaven both have MA9 players that can assist with a GFI - and these are players that are likely to take sure feet anyway. With an assist (or even 2) blitzing through the line with the ball isn't that hard. an arrow block or better is all that is needed.

Worth Considering
Admittedly, 5 diving tackle players with an ST of 3 or more does cause problems for 1TS teams, but how many teams can get those.

Also - with the right ammount of hand-picked skills, you can weaken the chances of a 1TS. Ask yourself - is it really fair that you have to build your entire team towards dealing with one player?
And more importantly - be spending that many skill choices on countering this one tactic, how many other teams and tactics do you leave yourself open to?
Isn't it simply too much work to be "OK"?

My Point
I've had a beef with 1TS'ing for years.
It is very very easy, and it involves next to no tactics or response.
And tactics and response is what makes this a great game!

But here is the kicker: I feel the same way about 8 turn grinds.
No, not hard played, toe to toe, sweat producing 8 turn grinds - those can be very satisfying.
I'm only talking about 8 turn grinds where the attacking side quickly outnumbers the defense severely. In these situation, much like a 1TS situation, the choices become limited to the point of the absurd.

Now - as some of you have pointed out, the 8 turn powergrind counteracts the 1TS, ending in a glorious 2-2 draw. If played to the extreme, thats a very boring 2-2 draw I might add.
That is a perfect balance, though (IMO) one that produces boring games.

My point is this:
With the slow (and quite) fair decline of the bashing game over the years - no armor or injury rerolls, restricted fouling, mighty blow halved and finally piling on toned down - the hardcore outnumbering 8 turn grind has become very hard to perform. And that is good.

What I hope is that 1TS'ing too would become harder to perform.
That way the balance has been maintained, but the game will include more tense turns.
My solution is simple: Make sprint a trait!

Yes - it's that simple.
There will still be one turn scoring - but a true lightning 1TS (i.e. a 13 square straight run) will be a much rarer occurance.
And yes - both skaven and wood elfs will still be able to score by performing some simple pushback maneuvers on the LOS, but this will make the play progressively harder to perform.

So - is that so much to ask?
Make sprint a trait

Martin :)

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Post by plasmoid »

The defensive formation referred to in the article is basically putting a row of players 2 squares in front of your own endzone.
Ian Williams uses a variant with tackle on most of the defenders, and 2 pass block players positioned 3 squares behind the LOS. But basically, any "fat-line" defense is all you can do, and it is far from perfect.

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Post by ScottyBoneman »

plasmoid wrote:The defensive formation referred to in the article is basically putting a row of players 2 squares in front of your own endzone.
Ian Williams uses a variant with tackle on most of the defenders, and 2 pass block players positioned 3 squares behind the LOS. But basically, any "fat-line" defense is all you can do, and it is far from perfect.
So anxoius for feedback that you start answering you own thread Plasmoid? (heh)

I would back this if Guard became a General skill. Make it harder for AG teams to score and give them more chance at stopping a good rolling cage.

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Re: Plasmoids article on One-Turn-Scoring

Post by MickeX »

plasmoid wrote:My Point
I've had a beef with 1TS'ing for years.
It is very very easy, and it involves next to no tactics or response.
And tactics and response is what makes this a great game!

But here is the kicker: I feel the same way about 8 turn grinds.
No, not hard played, toe to toe, sweat producing 8 turn grinds - those can be very satisfying.
I'm only talking about 8 turn grinds where the attacking side quickly outnumbers the defense severely. In these situation, much like a 1TS situation, the choices become limited to the point of the absurd.
Hear! Hear!

(Though this sounds quite strange to a swede like me, I've come to understand that this is a proper way to exclaim your agreement in the English language... :D )

Counterargument: nobody would take Sprint as a Trait, unless they're making a 1TTD-guy.
Counterargument to that: Does anyone else take sprint anyway?

I really would like to find a way to encourage my dwarves and orcs not to go for 2-1 in all the important games. It seems very difficult though.

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Post by Skummy »

Plasmoid, I read your article when first posted on another thread, and I can't help but mostly agree. I think you've persuaded me that Sprint becoming a trait would probably be a good thing.

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Post by Bathoz »

Sounds good to me. I'm just trying to think which players that aren't one turn scorers would lose out from this decision, and all I can think of are the occasional speedy dwarf runners.

And of course it makes none welf/skaven one turn scorers even rarer - not counting ballistic shorties.

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Post by swilhelm73 »

I like the idea here. OTS still exits, but becomes a bit rarer and harder to get but still not impossible for the super speedy teams.

OTS can really make the game boring for the defender, but at least this way, the OTS really will be a player with a number of skills, not just any skaven GR that has two skills (one a double or ma+).

Perhaps you should make this thread a poll and see what the general consensus is?

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Post by ScottyBoneman »

I would not support the idea without adding a little bite to those teams.

I don't think the 8-turn score is going away, and the OTS is one of the best ways for a W Elf team to deal with it. If you leave the opponent with only one turn for their drive, you can't complain if they want to develop OTS.

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Post by gken1 »

I am partial to the idea but a one turn scorer still needs to roll the dice and you can make it hard for him. If you're not taking skills to limit the effectiveness of a OTS then shame on you. tackle, kick would be top two on my list.

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Alternative

Post by grep-v »

I don't consider it a solution to make Sprint a trait.
Skave for example still can produce 1-TS with only MA+1 and a double, that's harder than before but still very likely to get with four Gutter Runners. And it doesn't touch TTM-1-TS (great abbr. ....)
But ....

... I have an alternative rule that worked out pretty well in our league:

If offense or defense score in their first turn after kickoff, this is a turnover for the scoring team, but the opposing team gets one free Blitz action for any player of their choice (the scorer is still standing in the end zone). If this results in the scorer being pushed out of the endzone, being knocked over or losing the ball, the referee denies the TD. The coach who just carried out the Blitz may move his turn marker and continue his turn (but of course without the Blitz action, as he already took it).

That way you at least have the chance to counteract the "1-TS threat".
A one turner with Blodge, Sure Hands, Side Step still is dangerous but it's much harder to do the "nahnahnah, you can't hit me and I still score"-thing. It also happens to counteract TTM and lightning speed the same way. What do you think about this?

ciao

PS: of course this is derived from the Deathzon Special Play Card "Is it a Touchdown?"

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Post by gken1 »

i'm really on the ledge here...see both sides. But the ots team has to deal with the tackle mb piling on player and usually is down players. If the ots is for a tie to force overtime..i don't mind. the strong team usually should have player advantage by this time and thus the advantage.

Ken

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Post by Colin »

I agree with Plasmoid, make sprint a trait. (hey, if they can make pro a trait, why not??) :wink:

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Post by Circular_Logic »

Rather intruduce the following trait:
Taunt (GEN, trait):
During the setup, one player who is set up on the pitch as defense may use this trait. The defending coach picks one opposing player, who is taunted. This player must either be set up on the pitch by the offense or leave the stadium (and thus miss the game).
If a player, forced to play this way, knocks down the taunting player, armor-, injury- and siguardsroll are made with an additional +1-modifier.

Taunt the OTS and bash him off the pitch. This way you force the rat-coach to play the real game (and not the lame 'only 3 player defense'). Of course, he can have three one-turner, but hey... then he deserves a shot with this lame strat.

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Post by Bathoz »

I assume you mean offence, otherwise the OTS just comes on the field. Scores. And then buggers off again.

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Post by MistWraith »

Best soulution is to make them set up 11 players on the pitch or as close as they can, each and every drive. None of this only putting 3 players on th pitch stuff. No keeping your 1 turners for the offincive drives only, if you have suffered much in the way of casualties.

This will give bashing (and any other none WE or Skaven) team a chance to kill the little bugger. If you make it no longer safe to be a 1 turner, then their will be less of them due to casualties. Better than now when you have to hope they trip and break their own neck.

Another soulution is to make "Go Fot Its" progressive so that each one after the first adds a -1 to your roll.

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