Team Tiers

Skarsnikk · Post by **Skarsnikk** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:49 am

Sorry if this has been done before, but I couldn't find anything on the search function

.
I noticed in another thread that the Chaos pact team was intended to be a Tier 2 team and it made me wonder;
How are the teams tiered and which team is in which tier?

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:23 am

Tier 3 - Halflings, Goblins, Ogres
Tier 2 - Vampires, Underworld, Slann, Chaos Pact (IMO)
Tier 1 - Everything else

Tier 1s should have a little bit better than a .500 record*
Tier 2s should be about .400
Tier 3s should be about .300

Tier 1s should have a .500 record against other tier 1s. However since they should have a better record against 2s & 3s they ought to be just over .500 depending on the number of tier 2 & 3 teams in their competition.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:17 am

Ian's post is his opinion on the matter. It is NOT however what the BBRC officially used to create the CRP. What the BBRC officially used to balance the tiers was this:

Tier 1: Any team not in another Tier
Tier 1.5: Chaos Pact, Slann and Underworld
Tier 2: Vampire
Tier 3: Halfling, Goblin, Ogre

For the BBRC meeting last October to finalize the CRP we defined the Tiers like this though:

Tier 1: 55% to 45% win rate in average league play (with ties counting as 1/2 wins)
Tier 1.5: 50% to 40%
Tier 2: 45% to 35%
Tier 3: 35% to 30%

Galak

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:51 pm

I thought Humans had a win ratio just over 45%? Which would put them firmly in Ian's tier 2 (correctly IMO).

Ironjaw · Post by **Ironjaw** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:44 pm

It's different for tournaments- the general UK consensus for tiers is (without looking at stats):

Tier 1: Chaos Dwarf, Dwarf, Wood Elves, Skaven, Norse, Lizardmen, Orc, Undead, Amazon

Tier 2: Chaos, Human, Khemri, Pact, Slann, Dark Elves, High Elves, Nurgle, Necromantic, Pro Elves

Tier 3: Halflings, Gobbos, Vamps, Ogres, Underworld

Pipey · Post by **Pipey** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:46 pm

As far as I see it, if you're going to tier the races then you have to look at different TR levels. And it is definitely much more complex than the 1 2 and 3 Galak mentions - that's a huge oversimplification.

At TR100 (tournament or starting teams) Amazons, Dwarfs, Undead, Orc, Skaven are top drawer. Teams like Chaos, Rotters, Humans and most of the Elf teams are definitely inferior - tiers apart, you might say.

At TR110 a wider range of teams enter the top set e.g. Wood Elves, Chaos Dwarf, Norse. Chaos, Rotters and most of the elf teams are still a long way short.

At higher TRs (and in leagues) the elf teams tend to become more powerful with their ease of access to blodge. Higher still (toward 200 TR) I've seen Chaos/Rotters become much more competitive.

Gobbos, Ogres, Vamps, Halflings (LRB5 that is) are mostly pretty poor in any context.

What is true is that there are clearly some teams that are very good at winning games at any TR and in most contexts e.g. Wood Elf, Dwarf, Amazon, Orc. Equally some will always find it a little harder e.g. Human, Pro Elf, Rotters.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:36 pm

Joemanji wrote:I thought Humans had a win ratio just over 45%? Which would put them firmly in Ian's tier 2 (correctly IMO).

Galak's ranges are what we discussed - however humans are at the bottom end of tier 1 so may need a boost if we ever get to LRB7.

Ironjaw/Pippy - this has little to do with tournament play which is biased to low TV performance. Also tournaments (and res tournaments in particular) are house rules. So if tournaments have balance problems because of their house rules then we can't fix it!

So more its looking at what the teams do over a large range of TVs.

Pug · Post by **Pug** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:52 pm

How about a handicap for Ressus' Tournaments?

Tier 1 = 0 Bonus

Tier 2 = +15% GP (1'150'000Gp)

Tier 3 = +30% GP (1'300'000Gp)

Yes/No?................................

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:55 pm

I tried something similar.
2 bonus skills for tier3 teams.
1 for tier 2 teams.
I loved it

Purplegoo · Post by **Purplegoo** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:16 pm

I think this is so TR (/ TV) dependant in tiers 1 and 2 that you can't really be dividing races up very easily. For example, unless something dramatic happens in 5/6 I haven't come across (or understood from reading it), Undead start to fall off and get bloody awful after 175-200ish, whereas HE and DE really start kicking on around 175 soundly into that top drawer.

I reckon there are the odd one like Orcs and Woodies that rock throughout (or at least are rock solid, top end tier 1), but what sucks low continues to suck high.

I guess at low TR where the tourneys seem to live, you're looking for freebie skills and teams where you can get pretty hot out of the box players (rather than slow burners) for tier 1, Leon's group seems pretty sound / well versed. Do they ever get run at 150+ with a few more skills thrown in? I've always wondered why (sorry to sidetrack) they're at base TR in most cases before it gets really interesting; just easier to track skills? Easier to have Stunty Cups? Something in the golden 140-190 sort of range would be very tasty.

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:39 am

Purplegoo - I suspect that a tournament with a high TV would be quite tricky to run smoothly for the following reasons:
1) Skills, keeping track of skills could be annoying
2) Checking roster legality could be an issue
3) Games will take longer
4) Making the ruleset fair could be tricky. Putting a reasonable price on skills and distributing those skills could be an issue, in a league the skills dont all fall on the black orcs.

Ironjaw wrote:It's different for tournaments- the general UK consensus for tiers is (without looking at stats):

Tier 1: Chaos Dwarf, Dwarf, Wood Elves, Skaven, Norse, Lizardmen, Orc, Undead, Amazon

Tier 2: Chaos, Human, Khemri, Pact, Slann, Dark Elves, High Elves, Nurgle, Necromantic, Pro Elves

Tier 3: Halflings, Gobbos, Vamps, Ogres, Underworld

That looks like a pretty good breakdown of races for tournaments.

While I agree that the rules shouldnt be written with tournaments in mind I think the reasoning that "tournaments are house rules" is pretty ridiculous. A resurection tournament is simply a series of one off games, theres nothing there that goes counter to the rulebook... the rulebook does not specify that the only "pure" version of the rules is one where multiple games are played following full progression rules.

Purplegoo · Post by **Purplegoo** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:26 am

SillySod wrote:Purplegoo - I suspect that a tournament with a high TV would be quite tricky to run smoothly for the following reasons:
1) Skills, keeping track of skills could be annoying
2) Checking roster legality could be an issue
3) Games will take longer
4) Making the ruleset fair could be tricky. Putting a reasonable price on skills and distributing those skills could be an issue, in a league the skills dont all fall on the black orcs.

Hmmmmm, I'm going to try not to disagree just because it's you and your natural state is wrong!

1) 150 odd is like what, 10 skills? 12? I can't imagine that's a whole World of difference to some of what we have now.
2) Just send them a week before!
3) Probably, yep. But significantly? In a World where we have a 24 hour BB Tournament is this an issue?
4) It would take work, no denying; and I have no immediate suggestion as to a perfect idea. But I can't believe it's impossible. The reward is you're playing at a TV where the game is even more coach orientated and you've teams built a bit more in your own image. And score more with Black Orcs, then!

Anyway, perhaps a discussion for another place on another day, I'll get back to bashing you for your uber-n00bish tendencies at the other place and stop thread jacking.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:14 am

Ironjaws list of tournament tiers looks solid.
Probably reflects low TV team power pretty well too.

I should note that the +2/1 bonus skill thing that I did for our resurrection tournaments (with 1 skill per round for everyone) our tiers were something like that - not the BBRCs league play tiers.

And I'll restate that 1 or 2 bonus skills in a resurrection tournament is a pretty sweet deal.

As for the BBRCs tiers, which Galak mentions, it should be noted that there is also:
Tier 0: 55%+ wins. Currently Wood Elfs, Undead and Dwarfs
Tier 4: 25% or less. Currently halflings.

It'll be interesting to see if the suggested team changes for these teams in LRB5+ manage to move them out of the ugly zones. Personally, I think dwarfs might stay up, and halflings will stay down. If we even get any numbers for halflings that is.

Cheers
Martin

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:22 am

plasmoid wrote:I tried something similar.
2 bonus skills for tier3 teams.
1 for tier 2 teams.
I loved it

I don't get the point tbh. Isn't the point to go into the game the underdog and have the challenge?

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:11 am

In a tournament setting, not so much.

In league play, sure. Knock yourself out.

But in a tournament, I'd rather have different races attending, then the usual 5 undead, 5 wood elf, 5 chaos dwarfs, and the 1 optimist wetting himself with gobbos.

Besides, the bonus skill(s) narrows the gap, it doesn't close it.

Cheers
Martin