Galak's Review of the rules in his boxed set

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Galak's Review of the rules in his boxed set

Post by GalakStarscraper »

Okay ... I only post this as its own topic since I wrote a very great deal of the last rulebook.

I've read through the 2 rulebooks in my package that come to me yesterday. And wanted to give my thoughts.

Overall ... I like it. This was the treatment we really all wished that BB was going to get when it turned 20 years old in 2007 or 25 years old in 2012. I'm impressed by what I see in the box and if Andy Hoare reads this ... damn great job mate.

The new league rules ... I actually like them. There is tactics and strategies definitely to be explored there in keeping a team together if you carry it over season to season. It will not be for some but the fixes I see in the league rules and getting rid of the nightmare that was the old petty cash system ... I can stand behind. The new minis I like also and everything looks good visually.

That said ... reading through everything ... I've spotted 7 items that really bother me ... but that's not so bad for a game as complex as BB. But there are 7 and I wanted to list them. If I had the ability to ... I would have loved to buy Andy a pint and debate these 7 heavily before they were put in the rules.

Revised by Galak on December 1. I really am down to just 3 things that really need addressed.

1) Treasury is part of TV
The more I discuss the way inducements are going to work ... the more I feel that Gold needs to be part of team value. Since Gold can be used at any time if desired to effect the outcome of a game ... its a resource to the team to effect how powerful the team is and as such that should be recognized in the team value. Otherwise ... you allow the overdog to become a super overdog very easily against a team that has been getting beaten up and is spending its gold as it gets it to rebuild in season.

2) Piling On
There were several good ways to deal with this. The errata version is not one of them. Making it a team re-roll and moving it Optional is just in my opinion deleting the skill without stepping up to the table and deleting it (like we did Razor Sharp Claws)
Move the skill to work like Paul Gegg suggested where you can only use it if a Defender Down result is chosen for the block result.

3) The Special Play cards.
I really like bringing the Special Play cards back in as part of the game. My league used them for a long time in every game and it was always a cool part of the game. HOWEVER ... the two decks in the box. One is a 50,000 deck and the other is a 200,000 deck. Saying the players can choose between them for all their draws. Who in their right mind is not going to draw all their cards from Miscellaneous Mayhem? They needed to do the costs of the cards on the front of them like the original rulebook and then in the rules you are given an amount of funds for cards that you can draw. For the base rules ... 1=50k, 2-4=100k, 5=150k, 6=200k and allow them to spend that on cards. For league rules, you could have definitely done something to set aside an allocation of resources for the cards for both players that could be added to through inducements. I am baffled that a 50k deck and a 200k deck were the two chosen to put in the box set.


These 3 really need addressed in my opinion with Death Zone #2

MINOR POINTS:
1) Errata still needed
How the Passing Range ruler works and how Wrestle works.

2) Weeping Blades and Monsterous Mouth
Neither skill is broken. But its the fact that rulebook space was used to put in two new skills that are really just fluff and done to match up to miniature design. Miniatures should not create rules bloat. So I have no issues with the skills ... just why they were made in the first place. Delete Weeping Blades and change Monsterous Mouth for that star to let him have Sure Hands and Catch (even if that is a bit more than that skill offers) and you'd have been fine (heck Sure Hands might have made the Star actually have a decent use reason on a Nurgle team). So rules bloat based on miniatures design is in my opinion an incorrect path.

3) 5 documents to know the rules. 2 printed (BB & DZ) and 3 online (Teams of Legend, FAQ and Errata). When you go to Bloodbowl.com ... you don't see any of these 3 on the front page. They are buried behind dots in the Downloads section. 5 documents to get the rules right is asking for confusion. The online extras should be one document and that document should be part of the first dot of the downloads section of the Bloodbowl.com front page.


And seriously ... that's it. Errata happens so I'll not get excited for that. The pitch size had a reason even if it is tournament unfriendly. So those 2 items do not make the list for me. Overall .... I like what I see. I'd like it a lot more if the above were addressed.

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Re: Galak's Review of the rules in his boxed set

Post by GalakStarscraper »

As a side note ... I wonder why the names of the Miscellaneous Mayhem and Random Events decks were flipped with each other.

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Re: Galak's Review of the rules in his boxed set

Post by Babs »

As another BBRC person:

I'm prepared to wait and see on the D3 MVP combined with the player turnover between seasons. I suspect we will see more 'super players with chattel' than balanced teams over time. One easy house rule is that your opponent rolls a D3 and they choose that many MVP's on your team for you to roll for - with you choosing the rest (and perhaps a rule that they must choose from players who have earned SPP's that game until there are none left to select from).

I completely concur with Galak on:
#2, #5 and #6.

I suspect Deathzone Season Three will have all the reference information we need in one place. :roll:

Another thing I'm irked by is the rules for 'friendly games' in leagues. This confuses and muddies any league which has a set number of games per round. The division rules and other league information like the rules for 'friendly' games should have been more explicitly optional. I also note that in these friendly games, while winnings is specifically mentioned, things like Miss Next Game injuries and other factors are not addressed.

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Re: Galak's Review of the rules in his boxed set

Post by GalakStarscraper »

Babs ... you are okay with the changes that were made with #3 and #4? (assume for a moment that Wrestle is not an error that is getting errata as we have not heard that is definitely so yet).

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Re: Galak's Review of the rules in his boxed set

Post by GalakStarscraper »

The text for the range ruler is from 1994 3rd edition Blood Bowl .. page 5.

So now I'm hoping it will be errata'd as it looks like the text from the wrong edition was used.

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Re: Galak's Review of the rules in his boxed set

Post by Babs »

Tom, You're such a stickler for the letter of the law. Intent of the law is clear in both cases. Yes, wording could be clearer - but nothing that a FAQ added won't fix.

On a positive note, it was lovely to see the BBRC get a mention in the 'Legends' team list document. Good to see we haven't been completely erased from all GW memory.

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Re: Galak's Review of the rules in his boxed set

Post by GalakStarscraper »

Babs wrote:Tom, You're such a stickler for the letter of the law. Intent of the law is clear in both cases.
Apologies

[rant mode on]
!@#$!@#@#$!#$ ... there is no such @#$@#$@# thing as intent in a rules document ...
ESPECIALLY when the wording for the CRP was already perfectly clear and did not have any need for a @#$&$%^*^&%&^@#% FAQ
[/rant mode off]

:wink:

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Re: Galak's Review of the rules in his boxed set

Post by Babs »

Ha ha ha Galak. My point is well made. :smoking:

But...careful wording is important, and why settle for vague wording when clear wording is right in front of you?

BTW What did you think of my entirely hypothetical house rule on the D3 MVP?

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Re: Galak's Review of the rules in his boxed set

Post by GalakStarscraper »

Its not bad Babs ... but my bigger issue is the stories I remember about BB often come from those random MVPs. Like my Vampire Thrall that got 3 MVPs and ended up with +ST and +AG and the running joke when I played that team in the league about how he had somehow been studying Vampires enough that he had managed to become a Daywalker like Blade. Don't see those stories happening with D3 MVP.

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Re: Galak's Review of the rules in his boxed set

Post by Marlow »

I will chime in with views from the peanut gallery

1) D3 MVP - Disagree
I like this and I think it fits well with the new redraft team rules. Bash teams used to balance out because they could just keep players alive longer but new retirement rules means Wardancer and Nurgle Warriors are likely to play the same number of games. Paying 100k extra to keep a single Wardancer will be easier than finding 400k to keep 4 Warriors that want to retire.

2) Piling On - Agree
There were lots of better ways this could have been done. It was only a problem in endless online environments not tabletop leagues. Its dead now - good ridance.

3 & 4) Wording Change - Agree
Hopefully this, and lineelf costs, is just more problems from them printing the playtest rules and general poor proof reading. I will wait a week and see what come out as an updated errata.

5) New Skills - Mixed
I agree that rules bloat based on miniatures design is an incorrect path. I do wish Mouth had been a new mutation though as it could be quite useful on other players.

6) The Special Play cards -
I am happy these are back. They have only printed half the 200k cards though and at least one has been toned down 'Bad Habits' is now only for the first half. With the Deathzone rules of "draw 3 discard 1" I would draw one of the 50k cards in the hope of getting 1 from the 3 good cards (Waterboy, Ball Clone, renamed Babes got Talant) or Friendly Fans against a Frenzy heavy team. As those cards could give an overall better chance of winning the game. It is also interesting that they cost 100k at inducements now.

7) 5 documents
Yes it is a bit much for new players.

My additions -

8) The new league rules
I really like these too. However the difference between a League and Friendly match is very vague and other than not getting an MVP and league points that seems to be it. For season it also says in one paragraph "play each opponent at least once" and then at the top of the next page "at least twice"!

9) Redrafting teams
While technically this may be part of the "new league rules" I thought it was worth covering seperatly. With a dozen games in a season you will get about 1.2 to 1.5 million to rebuy the team with and, maybe, another 200k in your Treasury. This should help limit the skill gap between new and returning teams.

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Re: Galak's Review of the rules in his boxed set

Post by hutchinsfairy »

Babs wrote:Intent of the law is clear in both cases.
It's surprising how often the intent of a rule can be demonstrably crystal clear to two people and still not be the same...

If you are reading an ambiguous rule hoping to see a certain thing then you end up seeing what you want to see, even if you are not consciously looking for a loophole. Of course, to the other party, you then look like a petty minded rules lawyer trying to game the system.

I have always been pleasantly surprised at how tight the wording is on CRP and I think this preempts a lot of ill feeling in the game.

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Re: Galak's Review of the rules in his boxed set

Post by GalakStarscraper »

hutchinsfairy wrote:I have always been pleasantly surprised at how tight the wording is on CRP
3000 of my hours and hundreds of playtester eyes.

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Re: Galak's Review of the rules in his boxed set

Post by Babs »

3000 of my hours and hundreds of playtester eyes.
...and it shows.

I think there is significant lack of clarity around the new rules, as opposed to that which is carried over. So much so, that they look and feel poorly written.

For example:
In a Friendly game:
* Do Deaths count permanently on a team or do the players 'just go into the Dead and Injured box and not return for this game' as specifically written elsewhere in Deathzone?
* Do friendly games count as the game players sit out if they are suffering a MNG injury?
* Do you roll for Fan Factor after a friendly game?

In between seasons:
* What price do rerolls cost (single price or double) when rebuilding? Do they carry over or do they need to be rebought?
* Do coaching staff / apothecaries need to be repurchased? I understand that Assistant Coaches can be gathered for free by releasing 'want to retire' players.


(These are genuine questions - can anyone definitively answer them?)

I just notice the vague-ness of the writing as opposed the clear wording elsewhere. A clear section on 'Friendly games' with all the rules in the one spot would have been very helpful.

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Re: Galak's Review of the rules in his boxed set

Post by DinoTitanedition »

Well now, I`ve read everything and here I come again....as one of the rather few players on this forum, that is more fluffdriven, than by sharp cut clarity and competitive possibilities :D The reason I say that is actually Galaks last sentence:
The pitch size had a reason even if it is tournament unfriendly.
I`ve reread his mentioned points and gave them a thought again. Are they all observed by their quality for tournament play? Because for me, as a someone who values atmosphere a lot more...

1) D3 MVP
...this seems to be a small speedbrake on the atmosphere. I do coach a footballteam in real life as well, and I know that it is an omnipresent fact, that you just don`t get what you want in life and that you simply have to deal with it. The D16 rule represented that very well in my opinion, and as Galak mentioned, real stories of glory can emerge from that, as mentioned on "the Daywalker".

If I take a look at the rather competitive side again, I believe the weak teams get weaker from that, and the strong teams get stronger. I mainly play orcs and knowing that one of three blackorcs I chose will get the MVP...is that fun for my other players in the league?

2) Piling On
In general I like the pretty much obsoledity of the rule. PoMb is an often used combination by teams with strength access. It effectively nerfs more teams than a modification on claw, as that can be taken mostly only on doubles. The downside again is, that teams like orcs and dwarves will appear to be very tough, as they are the only two teams with mostly AV9 in their team.

3) Passing ruler
I must admit, since I, as mentioned, mostly play orcs I rarely ever pass. If an opponent before I planted his players face onto the turf, he`s mostly out of range anyway. So I don`t have a bad feeling about the wording yet.

4) Wrestling
...err...what`s wrong with that? I have the german rulesdescription here and it seems to look exactly like the old rule.

5) The new skills
Still split on this, since it is a fluffdriver, but in general I support streamlining rules. The gamemechanics are old and playing a Blood Bowl match does take fairly long.

6) Special Play Cards
When I played before the team with the lesser TV got to chose the deck and every coach got one for free. Yeah, the cards are in some cases quite strong, but the high price made them be used less (mostly the magic items were chosen as additional inducements in my community) when money for inducements was left over. We`ll se how that works out. On paper it looks interesting. More randomness offers a different situation every other game and we as players are less tempted to play in "regular schemes".

7) Multidocument rules
I am absolutely with Galak on that one. It just isn`t comfortable to combine that many puzzle tiles for the full picture.

For Marlow's additions:

8.) League rules
I see a lot of interesting stuff going on there, but what even though some wordings aren`t clear, one thing for sure is: the potential of the league system is brought to it`s best when playing teams for several seasons, which I always preferred instead of starting from scratch every season. That always give me the feeling of a long stretched tournaments (where casualties remain).

9) Gaps between new and old teams
A much needed reglementation, as new guys usually needed to spend two or three seasons to keep their team alive and build it up until they were able to play with the big boys. It just makes an ongoing seasons league and keeping the continous coaching of one team instead of a different one each season so much more attractive.

Ma own addition:

10) Staff
On page 38 it`s mentioned that you need a mini to represent your coach, if you want to go against the refs decision. Finally! As some people on the forum know, I see this game very much as a miniature game, just as it is a board game. This makes the hybrid state of it very clear. Coming from the atmoshpere side again, it just supports the overall look and feel for the game. What I am missing here is, that it has to be clear the mini is also meant to be the coach. Wouldn`t like it for someone to grab just any mini and saying "That is the coach".

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Re: Galak's Review of the rules in his boxed set

Post by Regash »

DinoTitanedition wrote:Wouldn`t like it for someone to grab just any mini and saying "That is the coach".
As I am a very much fluff driven player too, I'd wonder if you shoud have ONE Miniature to represent YOU as the coach or if you should have a racially fitting coach for each team?

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