Structure

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Purplegoo
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Structure

Post by Purplegoo »

Hello, all.

An issue I think we've long suffered with when talking about TE is our lack of a structure governing how we get stuff done or change things as a community or group. We have a selection document, but that pretty much only deals with how we pick our captain and our team. Everything else around how we do things is pretty loose and un-governed.

While our move to TFF has generated some new faces taking an interest and some healthy discussion, it has also been a funny time where a number of us have deliberately sat on our hands so as to not dominate new discussion. We've also currently got a captain who isn't the most prolific internet poster in the world (I'm sure Dave would agree that's fair). In short, we have a bit of a vacuum. We've noted in a few of these threads that a number of ideas have been thrown out, but then conversation has collapsed as it is unclear what is next. In one instance, Mark has pushed through this and run with an idea that, when I read the thread, seemed to have only a relatively moderate amount of support (the exact ‘winning’ idea, more than the loose concept). This isn't in any way a poke at Mark; he's simply doing his best to drive what he thinks (and I mainly think too!) is a good idea, and why not do it this way, considering our lack of a structure? Indeed, Geoff took it upon himself to close the TE forum and begin outreach here without any sort of a conversation. Again, not a poke at Geoff (I believe his intentions were noble and again, I agree with where we've ended up), just an example of the lack of structure we have where this is OK.

So, what to do about that? On the one hand, no-one wants to be weighed down by numerous, onerous votes. On the other, the way stuff is beginning to happen doesn't feel super democratic to me; rather ideas are being driven by force of personality and passion. Looking forwards (so not to reverse our move or Mark's initiative), I propose that we as Team England have a period where any of us can try to change things or introduce new ideas. In a World Cup year, any English TFF member can table an idea for change. If (s)he gets 4 other coaches agreeing, we move to a fortnight of debate and a vote. Two thirds majority enacts change. I know not everyone likes that mark, but close, 52 / 48 sort of affairs tend to only leave a bad taste in the mouth and a few more years of argument! Vote topics can only be raised once per window, meaning we aren't just voting on something until we can brute force it through (an accusation leveled at our last home). In the event of an emergency, a captain can table something out of window.

The specifics of the idea are, of course, up for debate. But I think some form of structure is highly desirable. Again - just to be super clear with smileys and everything - I am not poking at anyone here, I just think it's a good idea that we've been faffing around with for a number of years. The last couple of months just bring it into sharper focus. I'm pretty impressed with the level of chat in this sub forum so far, and I'm 100 % convinced everyone is acting with the very best of intentions.

Now - smileys as promised.

:D :lol: :P :o :oops: :evil: :zzz: !) !) :smoking: :-?

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Re: Structure

Post by Nippy Longskar »

Sounds very good to me Phil.

I am very conscious that I've been a bit heavy handed with progressing the Team England EurOpen stuff, although hopefully in that case it is at best a good initiative and at worst I don't think it actively disadvantages anyone, and we can scrap it and come up with something better for 2020 (it was only intended as a short term patch anyway).

Overall..yay for Team England and even more yay for a well-structured Team England :)

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Re: Structure

Post by Purplegoo »

It was either get ‘heavy handed’ (proactive?!) or have nothing happen as we did the collective forum bimble! I’m fine with you grasping the nettle on this subject for this year - I just don’t think it’s a good model going forward. Glad you’re ‘pro’ that too.

Happy I apparently came across in a constructive / non-critical way; easy to get this stuff wrong on the internet and start rucks you don’t mean to... ;)

Yey indeed! :D

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Re: Structure

Post by Pipey »

Welcome this topic Phil, thanks. Completely agree that discussions need structure and direction. Indeed it seems like people don't know how to take ideas forward, in particular regarding Eurobowl team selection which is a much thornier area than some others e.g. practice weekends, EO TE etc. where perhaps it is more suitable for things to move forward with an enthusiastic individual taking on board ideas and realising them.

My feeling is that we need an impartial person to collate ideas and find a path forward to realise any changes the community wishes to implement. Exactly how that works in terms of what might be voted on I guess is down to what that person feels the community is asking for.

Following the French model, where Tournament Coordinator staff mediate the process of discussion, I think one of our NAF community leaders would be very appropriate for this role. How about Hawca who is highly respected as the UK’s lead Tournament Coordinator, and has natural impartiality being as he is Welsh and has no stake in Team England business. Others might have an inherent conflict of interest since they have played for (some captained) England, or may play in future.

I feel we'd also benefit from a clear timeframe to decide when we review in future. Rather than having constant review, discussion, voting etc. every year. Maybe the Eurobowl / NAFWC cycle is our friend here.

What do others think?

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Re: Structure

Post by Purplegoo »

At the risk of repeating myself, I don't think any sort of external moderation or mediation is required if you set your framework for ideas or change requests appropriately. You set a window where this stuff can be looked at and tabled for review / a vote (each WC year is reasonable, I think), and if there is enough support, any idea from any English source can be put to the community. It doesn't get any more inclusive, impartial or democratic than that, why put in an extra layer in where a community member can get annoyed with Hawca / A. N. Other because he did / did not move forward with a motion? Seems like unnecessary bureaucracy and makes it look like we need a guiding hand to keep our house in order, which I don't believe to be true. In the event we have several ideas on the same theme, it’s easy enough to have ‘change y/n’ and then ‘option choice’ rounds of voting without it becoming a year long nightmare of 30 polls.

However, three out of five posts already on the subject - I'll pipe down.

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Re: Structure

Post by Pipey »

To pick up on one general thing before I also let others have a say... Personally I'd be concerned about the "67% for change" requirement as it can also leave an unsatisfactory resolution if a vote falls down at around 66%, which it has done in the past.

Crucially the document we would currently hold up to these 67% change standards is 10 years old and was written with less input than for example Nippy's recent TE EO thread. It was put together very much with a handful of individuals driving it through with force and passion (to use your words Phil): about half a dozen, several now no longer playing.

This is a new era of engagement and if more than 50% want change then IMO that should happen.

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Re: Structure

Post by Raging82 »

I for one have no stake in this as I will be team Ireland from now on. But I can see the problems here. You have the largest player base to pick from. With that comes so many different options and opinions on how to go forward, how to structure. There will never be a way of keeping everyone happy as everyone is passionate.

But Phil is totally right. Structure based on something solid is needed. Maybe a committee that have a minuted meeting on a monthly or bi monthly basis. Publish the minutes after so it’s open to all. Have open discussion and anything put to the committee ( maybe a England blood bowl email- so everyone can address points and not have it bogged down on a open forum. Forum discussion can turn nasty as I said above, we are a passionate bunch and want to be heard, different views lead to unhelpful turns sometimes. Ie the Brett korne debate ).

I love the idea of training camps but how to run this? Districted areas of the country having a one day tournament but is floor walked by the best rated players that teach were they can.

The open team promotes inclusion and I think a positive thing, but what’s the goal with this?

I’d strongly encourage a outsider being involved. Like Hawca as mentioned above. I think you guys get more flak then you should do because a lot of people feel they will never be at your level or able to break into the running at the top flight of English blood bowl.

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Re: Structure

Post by Joemanji »

Good post Phil, glad you brought it up. I think inclusivity is great and desirable, and I've spent many hours of my free time trying to promote TE and get new people involved. However there is a very big difference between getting people organically interested in Eurobowl and TE, and making structural changes to how we organise ourselves based upon a few pages of comments on the internet. Half a dozen people sort of approving of an idea on TFF is not grounds for us to change anything IMO. We have a team that is the envy of every other nation. At the end of the day it belongs to the community, so if there is a groundswell of support for change then I accept that completely. But when we are getting 40 votes in our captaincy election, a TFF thread with 10-20 people commenting is not a mandate for anything. Hence the need for structure.

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Re: Structure

Post by mubo »

Purplegoo wrote: So, what to do about that? On the one hand, no-one wants to be weighed down by numerous, onerous votes. On the other, the way stuff is beginning to happen doesn't feel super democratic to me; rather ideas are being driven by force of personality and passion. Looking forwards (so not to reverse our move or Mark's initiative), I propose that we as Team England have a period where any of us can try to change things or introduce new ideas. In a World Cup year, any English TFF member can table an idea for change. If (s)he gets 4 other coaches agreeing, we move to a fortnight of debate and a vote. Two thirds majority enacts change. I know not everyone likes that mark, but close, 52 / 48 sort of affairs tend to only leave a bad taste in the mouth and a few more years of argument! Vote topics can only be raised once per window, meaning we aren't just voting on something until we can brute force it through (an accusation leveled at our last home). In the event of an emergency, a captain can table something out of window.
Agree with need for some kind of structure. However, personally would be much happier with a commitee. The system proposed is still dependent on post count. Maybe 5 people, with 3/5 needed for anything to change. People vote in a commitee, changes each year. They decide whether to put out an EO team, selection requirements etc. Anyone with an idea needs to convince the commitee that it's a good one, rather than keep proposing votes. Any English coach with 1 NAF tournament in last 12mo gets to vote for commitee.
Pipey wrote: ... 50% ...
I think 67% is a good number for votes to change something. You probably found it unsatisfying because it was close- which is more of an issue with number of voters (small) and open vote system.

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Re: Structure

Post by Leipziger »

+1 to what Nick has posted.

Could we have the TE charter posted on this subforum somewhere? (apologies if it’s here :o )

Agree too re: 67% percent.

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Re: Structure

Post by Pipey »

I find 67% a very stringent requirement when the policy we’re voting on wasn’t ratified democratically at all, just a vague consensus years ago between a tiny number of people (many fewer than are involved in these debates).

Going forward if we end up with a policy that is current, widely debated and democratically approved then I’m much more open to the 67% rule for change.

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Re: Structure

Post by Joemanji »

Agree on 67%.
Leipziger wrote:Could we have the TE charter posted on this subforum somewhere? (apologies if it’s here :o )
Added.

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Re: Structure

Post by Purplegoo »

I absolutely take the point about the selection document, and I don't think anyone (I stand to be corrected?) is deeply attached to it as a whole. Indeed, there has been a move to re-write large sections of it more than once that never really got enough traction as the silent majority shrugged their shoulders. I think separate that discussion from the supermajority one; philosophically if we are to openly vote on TE changing something or incorporating something new, a supermajority system is the most sensible. Especially considering the nature of internet votes. Change missing out by one vote is going to be unsatisfying if you want change, wherever you set the bar for a motion carrying.

All that being said - elements of that admittedly flawed and un-ratified document have been examined by the community via polls, in some cases more than once. Throwing out the whole thing because we're using a new forum and it would seem an opportune time to do so would appear to be the opposite of democratic. At the very least those points should be retained until challenged via whatever structure is put in place at an appropriate time.

I have to admit I don't see the need for a committee. We struggle enough some years with the election of one captain, let alone five committee members that get to pick and choose what ideas they want to internally debate and rule on. Let's be honest, how many things are we practically going to discuss changing anyway in a given timeframe? Any sort of a body (Andy, a committee, other) that acts as a filter between the community and the way we run things seems needlessly bureaucratic to me, and I think you might lose the very sort of casually interested coaches that this forum move was designed to engage by putting hurdles in place. That said, I like the idea of the same vote not returning multiple times and feeling like something is being brute-forced through, and I'm sure a committee would stop that happening.

I'm beginning to feel a thread started on the basis a structure would be good lest we rely / falter on someone grasping the nettle and deciding things happen on their own may ultimately require someone to do just that to get us there. Which is uncomfortable. Hmm.

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Re: Structure

Post by Pipey »

Feels to me like we need a simple path forward that will not be strangled by bureaucracy and will engage people in the process rather than turning them off.

That’s why I favour an impartial, widely respected individual applying common sense to draw out the salient themes to give the democratic process a rudder, some leadership. Guess you could call this grasping the nettle.

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Re: Structure

Post by Leipziger »

I think it might be a good idea to have a minimum number of votes cast too before anything can be changed. I’m not sure what would be a reasonable number as we don’t really know how many people we can expect to get involved. 20 perhaps?

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