Calling ALL English coaches.... (yes, that includes YOU!)

[lunchmoney]

viewforum.php?f=85
TE Subforum is up and running. Go wild

[Garrick]

viewforum.php?f=85
TE Subforum is up and running. Go wild

Good luck guys.

[Wulfyn]

In order to support the inclusivity drive I want everyone reading this to know that if you are interested in a foreign tournament just let me know and if I see an interest I will let you know to include you.

I know it is hard to swing trips overseas but it is much harder to do by yourself or for the first time. I was very lucky to meet Wilf at me first NAFC who brought me into a group of people who travel regularly. There's definitely a lack of UK travellers compared to other nations, and this could be one reason why.

I'm currently in Italy attending the Tilean Team Cup for the second time, this year in Bologna. Last year we were looked after incredibly well and one thing I have noticed is how welcoming event organisers are. I'm tweeting the trip ( @thetacklezonebb ) for those interested.

Jbone, lycos and val are currently on gelato round 2!

Maybe this is a good topic for the new tff te forum? That way more people can get involved in trips abroad.

[lunchmoney]

Maybe this is a good topic for the new tff te forum? That way more people can get involved in trips abroad.

Then start the topic

[20phoenix]

This thread seems to indicate that at least at the moment more traction can be gained on TFF, so I'd suggest keeping things here for now, as others have suggested....would that mean setting up a specific Eurobowl subforum though, with further subforums for any nation that wants one? Seems unfair for only England to get this.

Team Wales already has one and the request has been put in to make Team England one. I'm sure the admins will consider any request for another sub forum, so if Scotland, Ireland, Spain, France, Italy, whoever, wants one all they have to do is ask.

Yes and it has inherent issues.

[sann0638]

In order to support the inclusivity drive I want everyone reading this to know that if you are interested in a foreign tournament just let me know and if I see an interest I will let you know to include you.

This would be brilliant. The point has regularly been made that the "clique" are just good chums because they have travelled a lot. It would be an amazing act of generosity to include new people in travelling plans. (this sounds really sarcastic. It's not meant to be)

[Garrick]

In order to support the inclusivity drive I want everyone reading this to know that if you are interested in a foreign tournament just let me know and if I see an interest I will let you know to include you.

Does Scotland count as foreign? We get regular visits from Geordies, Northerners and ex-pat Scots but not many Southerners. Here is a list of upcoming Scottish Tournaments (there is one this weekend):

• GraniteBowl Aberdeen 19/20 May
• Antonine Wall, Whitburn 16 June
• BurgerBowl, Edinburgh 21/22 July
• OchilBowl, Stirling 11/12 August
• KillieBowl, Kilmarnock 10 November

[Wulfyn]

Garrick, prob not until your next referendum, then who knows?

Seriously tho there is no strict rules about this, and certainly I'd prob find it a touch faster to get to Brassbowl in Ostend than some of the Scottish tournies so there's definitely the case for communicating for group travel.

My first thought was more around tournies that are not well attended / advertised by/to the English community. But this needs to be more than 1 person's opinion if this can really be called inclusive. In particular events like Lutece and Tilean Team Cup are crucial because they are team events so no group = nobody goes.

But I don't see why Scottish tournaments can't also get some love!

Shameless plug: please get these and any other tournaments up on thetacklezone as another place to help advertise them.

[howlinggriffon]

I've been looking at BurgerBowl for a while now as my wife can't wait to go to Edinburgh again. If we don't make it this year, we'll be there next year certainly.

[Garrick]

I've been looking at BurgerBowl for a while now as my wife can't wait to go to Edinburgh again. If we don't make it this year, we'll be there next year certainly.

Just to pile on the temptation, this is part of the 1st prize for Burger Bowl THIS year:

[Purplegoo]

Hi all.

I’ve enjoyed watching the discussion, but haven’t chipped in to date because I think there is a danger (to which Mark alluded) of the same old voices saying the same old things and dominating the discussion, steering it down the usual channels. I think it’s much more valuable that newer or historically less engaged coaches talk about what they want from TE and what (if any) change they’d like to drive. When I was captain, I really wanted to raise awareness and engagement. That was as important to me as winning, perhaps more so. I must have written or said ‘we are all Team England’ a hundred times, and I really do mean and believe that.

I’m glad that we’ve made a move away from the TE forum – while Joe did an excellent job last year in innovating and driving traffic there, making it busy, I do think it has outlived it’s usefulness. I agree with EO travellers having access to shirts (I think I’m right in saying this has been true since Austria or Belgium, although I’m not sure that is widely known?), and I like the idea of a TE EO team, although I know it’s been tried and not yet been successful for one reason or another. If we achieve a more accessible / used internet home and some improvements to our EO ‘offering’ via these discussions, then we’ve had a win, I think.

Naturally, I’ve views on everything else mentioned, but me copy / pasting (I think each point has been discussed before in some form or other) is not really that constructive. I think we appear to be ‘on’ the major themes raised, so that’s all good. Getting 22 ‘interested’ in selection (Dave’s way was to encourage coaches to come forward via any channel – perhaps people get scared off when ‘interested in selection’ threads are quickly populated by big guns. 22 is the number he says he had to choose from) for Wales is pretty good, but if we could equal or better that for Poland, we really would be cooking on gas.

I hope new voices keep talking and making use of the sub-forum!

[Pipey]

Getting back on track… and stepping back to take a look at where we’re at…

( lovely team btw Garrick – look forward to competing for it at my next “foreign” trip! )

The views shared in this thread seem to fall into two categories:

(1) Changes in custom and practice
-where we plan to do most TE discussion
-general inclusive attitudes with the wider English community, togetherness of EB/EO travelling group
-practice events with players encouraged to share ideas on tactics

(2) “Constitutional” changes
-how and when the team is selected
-how and when the captain is put in place


I’m wondering whether (1) could be cemented in an “English Eurobowl Charter”, a development of the Eurobowl Charter on eurobowl.eu. Most people seem to agree that these things would be a step in the right direction. Pertinent parts of the Eurobowl Charter are as follows:

Each nation selects one coach as Captain to represent the team in meetings etc.
The Captain’s role involves sharing information and gathering opinions about Eurobowl from within his community (not just the selected team), and to represent these in any meetings he or she attends. The captain can send a representative from the nation to the captains meeting.

Team selection should be fair and representative of each nation, in line with point #4 of the NAF’s Pre-Tournament Requirements.

Could that be fleshed out to meet our needs? So a sort of mission statement, with some things suggested if not made absolute requirements?


With (2) there are lots of ideas but not much consensus. Exactly how we steer things forward from here I’m unsure. NAF staff? Podfrey as the initiator of this discussion?


---

Anyway, these are my personal thoughts on the “constitutional” type changes…

I think the current situation where a captain who chooses purely subjectively AND where a highly restricted version of democracy is used (only eligible as captain if you have been picked before) does not engage the wider community enough. I think it is inevitable that some will look at this and see the ‘Old Boys Club’, and this will engender apathy towards the system. Whether or not the ‘old boys’ thing is true is to some degree irrelevant; as Besters said it is all about perceptions.

I feel like we need either a full version of democracy where barriers to being involved in selection are restricted significantly, and where we trust that the community will decide who is the most suitable to make decisions (not a controlled version). Or we employ some objective means to qualify for the team on statistical / ranking grounds. Or the third way, we have some element of both.

If we do have a qualification system then great care would have to be taken about this for reasons stated by several. A system which can be “gamed” is unhelpful, as is a system which somehow forces players to always take power option to every tournament. NAF Elo can of course be “protected”, Glicko punishes all-rounders who take many different races. Perhaps the Danish Coach Rating (NAF Elo, where all results count as a single ranking, no race by race score) is the best way? The Danes have used a tier weighting also so if you do well with low tiers your score improves. It may be easy enough to borrow their system if structures for calculating the score are already in place.

Could some of the team qualify, with some chosen subjectively by a captain (like Scotland, Denmark)? Or by agreed consensus amongst those who have qualified (like Belgium e.g. half the team or more)? With a model similar to the Belgian system, the captain could be put in place after selection. One of the travelling EO/EB group could take that role to lead the wider team on the trip? This person could also lead discussions and information sharing, attend the Captains Meeting (as per EB Charter).

Lots of thoughts and ideas there. Bit of a ramble. Not sure what I think is the best way forward to be honest. Still lots more ideas to come I’m sure. And who would lead the process of review? Again I’m not sure.


PS (just saw your post Goo before I posted this) – I am an old voice but am happy to say that lots of the ideas above have developed from thoughts brought to the table from newer voices

[Wulfyn]

Hmmm interesting. My take was that the top 2 outputs was road mapping a way into TE (EO team and wider traing group), and more inclusivity with trips to places (grouping up, travel plans, and getting newer players easier access to foreign tournaments.

Not sure how much appetite there is for more regulated selection. Is any system going to be fair and free of bias? I'm not sure it can be. And if we were not winning I think they'd be an argument for trying new things but... well as others have said if it ain't broke?

But am open to suggestions. What would you see as a good alternative? I think we should discuss what the outcome would likely be before we think about voting.

[Pipey]

Loads of people have been talking about different possible selection methods (as well as the other stuff). Not everyone of course, important to say that. Fair to assume there's a theme that people want to talk about changes. In general I'm just thinking aloud as the is debate rolls on.

[Glowworm]

Don't think I'll ever be selected for "Team England" unless the rules change to force teams to include a mediocre drunk, but I have followed this with interest.......

"The clique"?? Don't we all gravitate towards coaches we know at tournament, sit and chat after games? Doesn't that make us all part of a "clique" I'm probably in a minority as I often just float about talking to however will tolerate me...... So, when your sitting with the guys you travel with, play in a league with & often socialise with are you not a "clique"?

New forum for Team England.....? Why not, however I was ( and still am) a member of the Team England forum, voted there and TBH, felt included in the decision making process...

Selection, as everyone has a valid opinion and most BB coaches are not shy about sharing it, if you ask this question you will get multiple ( probably correct) answers, when you pick one people who suggested an alternative will shout the loadest, doesn't make them right ( or wrong)

Should we all vote on Team England selection? Probably not as we may end up with the popular coaches rather than the best team, and to not send the best team would be plain silly ( like sending my beloved Doncaster Rovers to the FIFA WC)

Finally, I'd like to wish everyone every success at the Europen, and please read the rules, the head ref doesn't want too much hassle!!! Keep the ultra competative in the Eurobowl!!