Calling ALL English coaches.... (yes, that includes YOU!)

[Podfrey]

TL/DR: Correcting inaccuracies. Are we happy to have TFF as the new home of Team England?

Unfortunately it would be remiss of me to ignore the elephant in the room. Geoff (Podfrey) has started this discussion mainly it seems because he is sore about not being picked for Team England in Wales...Unilaterally closing the Team England forums should not be any one person's decision to make.

I would like to correct this inaccuracy. Since the team announcement I have worked positively for the future of Team England, pulling in two new EurOpen players (one of whom had never heard of the Euros) and am actively sorting accommodation for ours and another EO team.

The truth of the matter is that I commenced the move to wider community engagement at Monkeybowl earlier this year where I sounded out a number of coaches and began the groundwork, and timing wise felt that immediately following team announcement would be best as it didn't disrupt the process whilst capitalising on the exposure it gave.

The reason for the temporary closure of the TE forums was a result of observing the same people going over the same ground without progressing the matter, and therefore it was clear that we needed new voices. I am absolutely delighted to see that bringing the discussion here has done that in a way that no previous (or current) other media has done and I would like to extend my personal thanks to everyone who has joined in so far (and hope this encourages others who are reading to have their say).

So where do we go now?

Whilst we clearly haven't heard from all English coaches (come on you lurkers...!!) this initial thread has generated a lot of good ideas to explore. But where to discuss (and agree on) them?

Based on the discussion in this thread, it is strongly (unanimously?) in favour of moving away from the bespoke Team England forums as they have become one of the barriers to people's involvement. Also there is a strong call to unify on a single preferred site for discussion. As this site (TFF) seems to be accepted as having the highest proportion of tournament going English coaches, it would seem that it is therefore best positioned to become the new home of Team England discussions. Sites like FaceBook, Reddit, the NAF and TackleZone all contribute and play a part in spreading awareness, but I believe that the English community has a majority consensus on where it feels the "home" is.

I'd like to think that I have the broad measure of feelings here and that the above paragraph sums up the feelings of posters so far. And, if that's the case, I am happy to start the process to establish a Team England sub-forum here on TFF.

However it's not about me. What do you think? Do you want to vote on this? Do you want to post to say "TFF Yes" or "TFF No"? How do you want to take this first step? (please respond with what you want, not what could be done)

Thanks, and keep your thoughts coming!!

Geoff
(Latin: "Elephantus Podfreus")

[deeferdan]

I think you are in danger of having us talking in circles if absolutely everything has to be democratically determined... There is a clear appetite for discussion, the Eurobowl sub-forum isn't quite the right place for it.

Open a sub forum,
make it available to everyone and not hidden in any way,
Get on with it

[speedingbullet]

TFF Yes

[stanrichardson]

Although it must be said that there were 22 coaches who put their name forward for selection this year, which is double what we had last time. Clearly Lycos's methods weren't a total failure.

I am interested in the above. All i can find is a list of 7. So this information is not in the public domain. Surely that is one of the key points the community know the pool of coaches who are being picked from? It appears even people who put their name forward is now a secret.

2. I think the role of captain might be too broad. It's too much emphasis on one person, who has to drum up interest, decide on team selection criteria where it's unclear, approach players, make public posts for social media etc. We should more clearly define the role.

I agree with Mubo here, Purplegoo did so much to try and engage the wider community and it was showing signs of working, more people seemed to be taking an interest, and again thanks and grats to what Phil did over those years. But in recent years things have taken a slide, and no offence to Lycos but this year has been a massive slide backwards, see comments above.

Maybe the way forward is a captains charter? I guide to what is expected of a captain. Certainly some people may go the extra mile or put more time and effort in but we should have a standard of whats expected.

For example:- Purplegoo was very open on why he selected the teams he did and also publicly stated why he didn't select others. Again this offered the community a chance to understand PG process and his reasons, also question it. Also if people have committed to making the trip i think its just manners explaining to them (even in private) why they didn't make the cut. This year I understand the captain only announced the team, and didn't even speak to the those that didn't make the cut, or make a public post regarding it. It hardly looks like an open process does it?

@Pipey: I believe we have voted on the selection document several times now; democracy doesn't mean we just keep having votes until Brendan gets what he wants.

The votes have been very low numbers of votes cast and they can hardly of been described as the will of the English community, lets be honest about that.

No one has called for a vote here anyway, to me this seems like people trying to get the community engaged and see what ideas are out there. This 'may' lead to a vote or change but if that's what the community want so be it.

I think everyone wants a better community feeling around Team England. And I hope people will engage with this discussion to achieve that.

[sann0638]

I am interested in the above. All i can find is a list of 7. So this information is not in the public domain. Surely that is one of the key points the community know the pool of coaches who are being picked from? It appears even people who put their name forward is now a secret.

Yep. I mostly assumed Geoff *hadn't* put his name forward, given the comment about Dwarf coaches when the team was announced. Disappointed meanwhile that no-one has decried my lack of English selection before I committed to Scotland...

[BillyDee]

I'm not even remotely on the fringes of EB, nor am I going to EO. I play about 4-5 tournies a year to a mediocre standard, but there was a call for all English coaches to comment so I will.

Joe's take on this largely mirrors mine:

I for one would only want to see people in the England team on merit, I would only every want to be there on merit, and I'm not proposing major changes (personally). I do however, really like the idea of informal inclusivity through EurOpen involvement and such informal "training" events at that proposed by Pipey.

The EB should be the best coaches doing their best to win for their country, the EO is for fun inclusiveness, though somehow tying the two groups together like the Scots seems a good idea.
Of course, the day I fluke a tournament win at the NAFC I will change my tune...

[stanrichardson]

I'm not even remotely on the fringes of EB, nor am I going to EO. I play about 4-5 tournies a year to a mediocre standard, but there was a call for all English coaches to comment so I will.

Billy - thank you. Team England isn't just about EB/EO, TE represents English Bloodbowl Community at EB/EO, I want to see every coach involved in some way. It doesn't matter if you play EB/EO, or just take an interest, or as you have take part in the discussion around it, everyone has an equal voice in TE.

I think what needs to change, TE is the whole community, not just the 8 that play in EB.

[landrover]

Based on the discussion in this thread, it is strongly (unanimously?) in favour of moving away from the bespoke Team England forums as they have become one of the barriers to people's involvement.

There was a bespoke Team England forum??
Count me in for one vote for bringing discussion onto this site please. TFF YES.

[landrover]

It would be good to understand from guys like Owen, Deeferdan, Besters, and others why they didn't participate there (is it that you didn't know about it, or it felt unwelcoming, or what?).

I did not know about it.

I was amazed that Simon was not in the French team for Portugal. I've played a lot of great french coaches and he is among the very best players in the world for me. When I asked why, he replied that it was someone else's turn to try. France don't have a core team because they don't have a core winning team. England do.
?

This might be a function of their not winning a la England, or it's more likely a reflection on the inclusion attitude of the French players as a whole.

In order to help prevent the 'Old Boys' Club' feelings or perceptions, how about:
Anyone elected for or stepping into the post of captain of Team England in a given year shall not be considered for selection for the captaincy or a player role in Team England for at least one further EuroBowl but may take part in the EurOpen?

Cat, meet pigeons. It would assist with a rotational policy of players though...

[landrover]

The French community is the gold standard. This is routinely cited by many, especially those who have travelled there to play. The English community has grown enormously, with some of the biggest events worldwide, several tournaments on every weekend of the year. Our systems (communications, captaincy rules, selection system, inclusivity) are stuck in the past. NAF, EB rules on consensus are clearly not met.

This is an opportunity for Team England to be something the whole community cares about and engages with. I hope we take it. We should remember that ownership of Team England lies with the English community, not the guys who have previously played.

Everything in this.

[Nippy Longskar]

Good discussion!

My opinions on the various issues that have been raised:

Team Selection
The team selection process is pretty much fine, and I'm very much opposed to the addition of stipulations such as the highest placed NAFC coach automatically gets a place, or a new cap has to be added. These feel to me in the first instance too random (you are essentially leaving the choice down to the vagaries of strength of schedule at one tournament...not taking anything away from any NAFC champions, they are uniformly excellent players), and in the second as an example of equality of outcome, not equality of opportunity. In other words, every coach, new or not, should have an equal chance of making the team, but the team shouldn't be forced to take a new coach just for the sake of it.

That said, I think one area where things need to get better is transparency. I'd say there needs to be an agreed place where everyone who wants to play for TE posts and says something along the lines of: "I'd like to be considered, I'll play/not play EO if I don't get picked, and by the cut-off date I'll have played x NAF tournaments in the qualifying period, including x outside the UK, and helped run x tournaments." I think that putting your name forward like this in the accepted place should be added to the qualification criteria, so that everything is fully open.

Role of the Captain
I agree with Mubo's point that there is too much weight of responsibility on this role at the moment and feel this is why people are hesitant to step forward. Maybe once team England (including the EO element?) is picked each year, people could take on official nominated roles, so one person is in charge of shirts, one is in charge of organising practice sessions, one in charge of communication/social media, one finances, etc. I think this has happened in the past in part, but informally, and again maybe formalising this and making it all very clear and open would help things along?

Central Hub
I actually thought the dedicated forum was fine...but I can see why some people weren't necessarily keen to post there/visit. The majority of what was said was from what I guess you would term 'heavy hitters', such as Pipey, Joemanji and Purplegoo, and while they are all very friendly people, I can understand newer coaches feeling slightly overawed and being less willing to join in debate than maybe they would be here on TFF. Additionally I feel like the addition of the Reddit page, although done with entirely the right intent, has confused things further and led to a diluted message about team goings-on this year. This thread seems to indicate that at least at the moment more traction can be gained on TFF, so I'd suggest keeping things here for now, as others have suggested....would that mean setting up a specific Eurobowl subforum though, with further subforums for any nation that wants one? Seems unfair for only England to get this.

EurOpen players as members of Team England

I think that having an official team of three to represent England at EurOpen is a must, and Wales is the perfect time to kick it off, with so much English participation. It is an awesome thing to strive for for newer coaches aiming to eventually make the 8, and should be recognised as having as much importance as the EB team. Therefore I'd propose a 'get-you-by' solution for this year, with a more concrete process implemented for the future. For 2018, I think that once the registration period for EO teams closes, any all-English EO team that wants to can put its name forward to be the Team England EO team. Then either 1) there is a vote among the English community for which team gets the role OR 2) Lycos picks the team he thinks is most suitable/appropriate.

For the future, I think the England Captain should select the 3 England EO players from the pool of those who have said they are interested and willing to play EO as well as EB.

Both this year and going forward, I think the three Team England EurOpeners should get Team England shirts, but with only the team badge (not the EB stars) on the front (a new star system could be implemented for this team if it wins events), and with EO1, EO2, EO3 etc on the back, to signify EO Team England cap numbers. These three would essentially be part of the team and involved in the organisational elements I mentioned above.

Practice Sessions
I think Pipey's proposed English Euro Cup (or whatever it will be called) is a superb idea. I very much like the idea of a non-NAF practice event where the full focus is on improving the play of everyone involved. I very much hope that one can be arranged for this August and will be in attendance if it does

Final Thought
Eurobowl and Team England are fantastic institutions and I really hope that the hike in interest created by the Cardiff event drives a lot more English community participation. The team has obviously done incredibly well and I was immensely proud to play last year and to be picked again this year. I think that things as they stand are actually VERY GOOD, and we as a community just need to tidy up and formalise a few things so that we can really press on and continue to go from strength to strength, both as a competitive team and as a community that supports and enjoys this superb event.

[lunchmoney]

This thread seems to indicate that at least at the moment more traction can be gained on TFF, so I'd suggest keeping things here for now, as others have suggested....would that mean setting up a specific Eurobowl subforum though, with further subforums for any nation that wants one? Seems unfair for only England to get this.

Team Wales already has one and the request has been put in to make Team England one. I'm sure the admins will consider any request for another sub forum, so if Scotland, Ireland, Spain, France, Italy, whoever, wants one all they have to do is ask.

[deeferdan]

It would be good to understand from guys like Owen, Deeferdan, Besters, and others why they didn't participate there (is it that you didn't know about it, or it felt unwelcoming, or what?).

I did not know about it.

Yeah, i didnt know about it.
Also to be fair, it's only this year (or at least since the last Cam Dubs) that i've really started to get the know the current TE guys better and thus spoke about TE a bit.
To be clear I'm not saying that you guys are in any way a barrier, you're a very welcoming bunch, its just that you guys are TE at the moment because there was (as far as I was concerned) no obvious home for TE, or place to discuss it if you weren't tacitly involved. I hope that makes sense!

The other thing to note is the obvious geographic divide - i tend to frequent more northern tournaments, most of the TE guys with the exception of the norther majors, Southern or European stuff.

[Pipey]

There is a clear appetite for discussion...
Open a sub forum,...
make it available to everyone

+1 TFF YES

As above, agree with Dan.

[Garrick]

This thread seems to indicate that at least at the moment more traction can be gained on TFF, so I'd suggest keeping things here for now, as others have suggested....would that mean setting up a specific Eurobowl subforum though, with further subforums for any nation that wants one? Seems unfair for only England to get this.

Team Wales already has one and the request has been put in to make Team England one. I'm sure the admins will consider any request for another sub forum, so if Scotland, Ireland, Spain, France, Italy, whoever, wants one all they have to do is ask.

Thanks but the Scots have a Facebook forum that currently successfully serves this purpose: Team Scotland Blood Bowl